Internet Marketing Con Men
Friday, 4:13 PM
Dear Friend,
I had a conversation with a really knowledgeable Internet Marketer today.
He was telling me about all the amazing advanced technology, programs and scripts he developed. I was completely fascinated… until he told me how he was using all this incredible technology to…
Deceive People and Scam Money Out Of Them!
I was completely amazed at his technical abilities and what he could do to extract money from his customers. ("Marks" would be a more appropriate word.) And completely shocked at his lack of ethics.
I felt like I needed to take a shower after the conversation.
And get this…
He wanted access to my subscriber list to promote one of his programs.
I couldn't get off the phone fast enough with this guy.
Listen… regardless of how much I'm offered in affiliate commissions, I will NEVER knowingly expose you to anybody like that.
One of the things we talked about was CPA networks.
I'll admit, I don't know a lot about that. I've done some advertising on CPA networks and here's my impression:
First of all, I don't understand how they get their names and how they put their offers out… but it seems pretty "spammy" to me. The customers I got from CPA networks were really low quality.
Most of the time the advertisers on the CPA networks offer a free trial. Then the customer is on a forced continuity program.
A lot of them hide the fact (or make it very hard to find or understand) that the customer is going to be on a continuity program.
A majority of the customers are of such low quality (they're functionally illiterate) that they really don't understand they're signing up for a continuity product. They just think they're getting a free supplement, skin care cream, etc.
So the initial relationship with the customer begins with…
Deception!
Not a good way to start a relationship, wouldn't you agree?
If your personal relationships started with deception, how long do you think they would last after the deception is exposed?
So it's no wonder these customers are of such low quality.
First of all, the majority are "bottom feeders"… and the advertiser has to deceive them just to get a sale.
Geez!
Frickin scumbags!
What's even worse is that these lying scumbags are the ones who then get into the "guru/good ole boy Internet Marketing club" and start promoting their "How to make a bazillion dollars a minute on the Internet" course to all the unsuspecting newbies.
They've never built a REAL business with REAL customers that stay for the long term. They've just made a lot of money on the short term by deceiving stupid people into opting into an auto-ship program with a free initial offer.
It's pathetic.
And what's even worse is that the poor unsuspecting newbies are learning "Internet Marketing" from these scum bags.
Yes, you can make a lot of money with unethical methods. But it's simply a matter of time until your merchant account gets cut off or you get shut down by some Attorney General.
And NONE of these people have any idea what it takes to build a REAL business by treating customers well, offering a good product… and selling back end products to their customer list.
They couldn't sell a back end product
to their list if their life depended on it!
They DECEIVED those people in the first place to get them as a customer. That person will NEVER do any further business with them.
So what do they do once their merchant account gets shut down… or an Attorney General or the FTC comes calling?
Well, you'd THINK they would wise up and start an honest ethical business where they don't deceive people.
And build a business by treating customers well so they could continue the relationship for years… and sell lots of quality back end products.
Nope.
They find a front man to set up under whose reputation hasn't been ruined…yet.
They promise the moon to this sucker, set up another merchant account using him as the front flunky, and go back to the CPA networks with the new guy's untarnished reputation.
Then they start the whole process all over again.
These would be the sociopaths Ken McCarthy talks about in his excellent copywriting course.
They're out there and they're ALL OVER the Internet.
In person, they seem very nice and normal. They're masters of persuasion and experts at getting people to like them and "bond" with them.
You might even know some of them.
You might even be on their eZine lists.
You may have even bought their products… ONCE!
I need to stop right now or I'll get too wound up and I'll start naming names.
OK… I'm done ranting.
That phone conversation struck a nerve and I really needed to "vent".
Thanks for listening.
It's Friday afternoon and I'm going to stop working and go get cozy with the Colombiana. I suggest you do the same with your "significant other".
All the best,
Nail on the head Dan. As usual. I've talked to (and been partners with for a short period with) the same guys and I had the exact same experience as you. It's all about high volume and quick turnover.
Most of the people on forced continuity last on average 2-3 months before they figure it out and by then they've been taken for a few hundred bucks.
It's extremely easy for these guys to find offshore credit card processors so for the "mark" to get a charge back it pretty tough, next to impossible actually.
The CPA companies usually make about 20% on a deal, they pass 30% on to their affiliate (who is the one that actually pays for the acquisition of the customer) and then the advertiser (scammer) collects about 50% pure profit per "mark". The problem is that the rewards are so high and the penalties are so low that this will continue for a long time coming. Think about it. All the CPA company does is manage their affiliate (which amounts to maybe 1 3 minute phone call a week) and the advertiser literally has to do nothing but have a website and merchant account.
The good 'ol US of A will be blind to this type of scam as long as everyone pays their taxes and Uncle Sam collects his 30%.
It's not going away anytime soon but I'm glad you pointed it out. I learned the quick and hard way about how this works and I'm on your side.
I believe that if you provide value to your customers everything else takes care of itself. For example, you give us tremendous value, you hardly make a dime off of this blog, but if you wanted to you would have no problem doing so. Repeatedly too. Anyway gotta run, but thanks for another great post!
Regards,
-Patrick
It's the whole "churn 'em and burn 'em" mindset: get as much money as you can as quickly as possible, then move on to the next guy (or gal).
Great post, Dan.
Ryan
p.s. When your email said you "recorded" your rant, I actually thought it was going to be a recording of your phone call… and then I thought, "Holy crap! Did Dan really record and publish a private conversation with a prospect??"
Anyway, excellent rant — and probably best you didn't publish a phone recording… and stopped short of naming names.
Hi Dan!
Thanks for the post, it is great, but I believe that you Should name names, to prevent newbies to get sucked into their businesses.
Your points are very valid Dan, thanks for great post.
There’s a difference between “Free trial”, and “Risk-free trial” though.
I believe CPA networks will stop accepting “free trial+forced continuity” offers sooner or later, as this hurts buyer’s experience long term.
That being said, some people learn to actually read terms and conditions only after they end up on several forced continuity programs. What this means is that those merchants who actually create massive value, have better chance to win repeat business . Quality risk-free trial offers should survive.
Folks with integrity use a simple rule of thumb: “If you wouldn’t sell it to your mother, don’t sell it all”. Very true.
I wonder how many networks will run an offer like “how to avoid being scammed when buying supplements online” if one comes up with it. And would the merchant be able to pay $40 per sale to affiliates if he hasn’t a forced continuity in place
Sergey
I subscribed to a few lists of people I thought were trustworthy. They were in the WarriorForum's War Room and they used AWeber. But in a few days, I started receiving "get rich online quick" spam emails. Some of these were even from AWeber where a fake email was registered with AWeber and that fake email forwards to mine!
Many/most people in Internet Marketing simply tell lies. Successful marketing requires giving up an objective perspective and presenting things in a biased light, which is similar to lying…
Affiliate marketers who own review and niche websites don't have to lose their integrity to make money. But they do have to work hard and provide real value.
Copywriting is an awesome profession. And it's such a satisfying thrill to write copy that motivates and moves people (I know this even though I don't write the best converting copy). But even copywriting is a dangerous territory if you'd rather keep a self-image of integrity and virtue.
Thank you for speaking out like this. It's great that some one is finally calling these people for what they are, scumbags.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Michel Fortin and Mark Welch Marketing. Mark Welch Marketing said: RT @michelfortin: Reading:" Internet Marketing Con Men" http://bit.ly/pjWeI [...]
Sometimes I really would like people to name names. Scammers deserve to be exposed. The problem is that no single person needs to bear the burden of outting these hacks. And it would quickly become a game of who to trust.
Extremely disappointing. I suppose the way to tell who is most likely to be operating ethically is to watch who stands the test of time.
Where this gets really frustrating is that all the players make nice in public, even when they know they're standing next to someone who partakes in these sorts of business practices.
Hey Dan!
Really love your stuff man!
CPA will never die and NEVER get rid of the “free trial+forced continuity” as Sergey(above my post) predicts, and I'll tell you why.
The “free trial+forced continuity” is the cyber version of a freek'n circus side show shell game! You, the unsuspecting participant(mark)will never win, and many times have no clue what you are entering into because of stealth black hat tactics!
You may know this, but if not, check out – blackhatworld.com- this is the center for tricks and tips as to how to trick innocent customers (marks as you so justly put it) into all this BS!!
Did you realize there is a "Z" index on a web page that allows these pricks to design an area of a web page behind the actual offer so that the visitor thinks they are clicking on a free offer or trial, but in reality they are agreeing on something totally different because the actual link they are clicking is in the invisible Z index?
The way they do this is put the active link in the "z" index, behind the #div tag(or table element) of the offer their marks are thinking they are clicking on. (this is how so many people end up with a virus when they think they are clicking on a "teeth whitening" offer on a seemingly appropriate and relative site.
On another subject-
I will never be able to thank you enough for the free telecast you did with Caleb and..crap, can't recall the other gentleman.
Your passion and relentless encouragement has finally gotten me to deal with my depression as a result of caring for my mom with Alzheimer's – stand the F**K up – and just go for it!
Fan for life!
Barry G
I really appreciate all the comments.
I banged that post out rather quickly after that phone call that left me flabbergasted… so I should probably clarify a few things.
I'm not saying a free trial with forced continuity is a bad thing. I'm saying the deceptive practices that hide the fact that it's forced continuity is bad.
Here's another little trick these guys do:
When the customer contacts the con artist and asks to be removed from the auto-ship, they conveniently "forget" to remove them for another month or two… or three.
They know only a certain percentage will actually do chargebacks, while others will just simply call back again (this time even MORE pissed off) and ask to be taken off continuity… again. So even after they cancel, the con man still gets another few months of continuity out of the mark…. er, sorry… customer.
These con artists are sharp. They know their numbers and play the percentages.
I didn't reveal EVERYTHING in my post. I discovered even more shocking stuff that they're doing that is probably a FELONY. If there's enough interest, I'll be glad to share it.
About naming names:
Pretty soon I'm going to reveal more about my "back story" that you may find quite surprising. (I haven't spoken about it in years.) But a lot of times I feel a real need to expose injustices and punish the wrong-doers. It's in my blood.
In most cases, it ain't such a good idea. Even though I'm right, it will probably get me sued.
Nobody to my knowledge has appointed me the "Internet Marketing Con Men Police" and even if they did, I wouldn't accept the job. The universe has a way of taking care of things on its own.
But I have to admit… some times I find it hard to keep my mouth shut.
Like the time a few years ago when one of the "gurus du jour" was traipsing all over the country and appeared at every "good ole boy Internet Marketing club" seminar, selling his $1,500 course and $1,000/month coaching program. He claimed the techniques in his program built him a multi-million dollar business in less than 2 years.
Well, I know a lot of people in this biz and I found out (from his fulfillment company) that he was only selling approximately $12,000 of his products a month.
I may be wrong because I sucked at math in high school… but $12,000/month in sales does not equal a "multi-million" dollar business, right?
Should I have exposed the guy?
Nawwwww… I'll let the universe handle it.
But I have to admit, it still kinda pisses me off. Here's why:
Because there really are plenty of honest people teaching marketing… who sell legitimate products that really meet their claims and can help you make a boatload of fungolas.
But when people get burned by the con men, they get jaded and start to think EVERYBODY selling marketing products is a fake.
That's why I never wanted to position myself as a guru. I don't want to be lumped into the same category as these guys.
Again, thanks for your input and comments. I've got some really sharp marketers on this blog.
Best,
Dan
In person, they seem very nice and normal. They’re masters of persuasion and experts at getting people to like them and “bond” with them.
Yep. The web is a great place for sociopaths.
Dan as much as I love you.. in a guru way…
I hate these type of "all these guys are out to get
you…..except me" rants.
Every guru I'm subscribed to has sent me an
email where they claim most of the other guys out
there are evil scumbags, not trustworthy, scam-artists….
but the problem is they never have the guts to name
NAMES.
So whats the point of the email? We KNOW forced
continuity offers are mostly sent my scamsters…
….but your DOBERMAN DAN…YOU naming these
guys would be the ULTIMATE sign of a REAL HONEST
guru…
If you had the guts to post a TOP FIVE GURUS TO AVOID
LIST…You would really help us, and in turn you would have
a loyal following for a long time….
thanks,
Sam Torres
Will you guys pitch in and cover my legal bills when they sue me for slander?
The problem is that none of the scam artists have publicly paid the price as a lesson of what not to do.
FTC fines, slap-on-the-wrist plea deals, etc. simply aren't enough of a deterrence. Until you actually see a couple of "A" list con artists perp walked to jail and sit there a few years, there's going to be little incentive for the ethically-challenged to do the right thing.
You bring up the issue of being sued for slander. The only good news is that most of the con artists you see online have so many skeletons in their closets they really don't want to be on the receiving end of pre-trial discovery or ever explaining themselves before a judge or jury.
The preferred response is to blacklist you from doing business within certain IM circles. Not much of a threat but that's how things are done.
Best wishes,
-Mike
This post touched a nerve.
I was conned by a "coaching company" into believing their $8500 coaching program would teach me how to create an online business.
These same people do not even have the skills to transfer the domain (I was forced to create to get my money back) to their own account, even after I have given them the transfer code. Much less actually teach anyone how to create a legitimate business.
And yet they continue to scam people without repercussion.
I'll stop at that before I land in up court beside you.
Dan don't give into the people who want you to name names.
All you can do is show people how to identify if someone's "fruit" is rotten or not. After that it's their job to think and make decisions for themselves. Anyone who wants you to name names is a shit weasel who hasn't thought this through very well from your point of view.
If you name names your nothing but a shit weasel who's putting your own business in legal jeapordy.
The ghost of GH
A few years back I had the "privilege" of being scammed by a very
well named internet marketer to the tune of $6,500. They were
supposed to help me market a website I had, built by a reliable
company, and get traffic to it. Needless to say, I never had any
success with their program. They wanted me to design everything
I needed and submit it to them to write the html pages.
If I was able to do what they wanted, I wouldn't need them. Being
a newbie, I didn't know any better until it was to late to get a
refund. I tried doing everything they said, but was not any good
at most of it because of lack of experience and knowledge.
Since then, I have studied and learned, and stayed away from most
of the guru offers. I don't like being scammed.
Aaron Wall wrote a post a while back where he warned people of words that are used that point to scammy products and services online:
Money Words
* money
* cash
* wealth
* income
* unlimited
* rich
Automated Words
* automated
* automatic
* autopilot
* magnet
* easy
* lazy
* system
* blueprint
* plug and play
* turnkey
MLM Words
* network
* downstream
* empire
Social Power Words
* power
* secrets
* seduction
* hypnotic
* domination
* success
Beware and watch out for those words in sales pitches… And I have found that the quality of the product often is the poorest when judged by the number of people that email me about it… Not always the case, but often it is… Don't just buy products because everyone is all excited about them and wanting to make their commissions… If you're not sure, don't buy… Spend your time building a solid business based on time tested methods… whether online or offline…
Dan,
I so appreciate what you did. These scams have been a thorn in my and my wife's side for a long time. Especially lately. My wife exposed a few of their tactics in her report, "Internet Marketing Sins" at InternetMarketingSins.com. I hope you read it.
She didn't name names for many reasons, the most important of which is the false sense of security it might provide. Let me explain…
If we expose guru "A" and people reading it are followers of guru "B" who preach the same kind of stuff, then these followers would feel they are "in the clear" and would ignore what we're saying, keep believing their guru, and continue doing what the guru says.
We'd rather focus on the sin, not the sinner, so to speak.
A final note.
I've turned down so many copywriting projects and clients doing this stuff that it would make any newbie copywriter cringe in horror by how much money I've left on the table. Like you, I'm just not willing to prostitute myself like that.
We may be out of a few grand turning down these guys. But at least we're left with our integrity intact.
Thanks for saying this, Dan.
Thanks for all the comments. I feel a little better.
This has been bugging me all weekend. Based on a few comments I felt like maybe I opened a can of worms I shouldn't have opened.
Even if I DID name names (which I will NOT) it wouldn't matter much. A new crop will pop up tomorrow operating under different names.
Plus, the people that I had personal knowledge of have fallen away. They may be operating under different people/names but they probably can't ever operate again under their real identities. Like I said, the universe has a way of taking care of things.
Dan
Dan, great job in 'letting your frustration out'! I've been taken by some really 'good' scams, but naming names is not going to solve anything, because as you said, they'll pop up tomorrow under a new name and site.
Doing one's own due diligence is the best way to combat these scams. As for newbees, we all start somewhere. Unfortunately, we have created a society where everyone wants someone else to 'do it for them', rather than doing it for themselves.
over the years being in brick and mortar biz [which I no longer am, thank God] I got sued. We live in a 'sue happy' society. I could have moaned and groaned and blamed everyone else. But what I did do, is I began to study the law, and got enough education that when I did have to hire an attorney, I knew how to keep him in check, and make sure he was acting in my best interest.
Guess what I am saying is we all need to take responsibility for ourselves, and when we want to purchase a new product, or feel like we're getting sucked into a new scam, there are many ways on the internet to investigate and inquire.
Let's stand on our own two feet like real entrepreneurs, and take responsibility for our actions. Are we gonna fail sometimes? Damn right! Most successful people have, including Donald Trump, Robert Kiyosaki, and many others…
Okay, I'll stop ranting now, and get back to making some money!!
Paul
Well, not really sure why my initial post wasn't approved … sorry for using the "p" word … or maybe it was for dropping an inactive link exposing a site that really does teach the exact malicious CPA methods mentioned in your post.
Or perhaps you thought I was out in left field when I mentioned the malicious use of the z-index(which can be made invisible on a web page) and how it can cloak these "bad" CPA offers people sign up for … don't just take my word for it -
"Think of any button on any Web site, internal or external, that you can get to appear between the browser walls, wire transfers on banks, Digg buttons, CPC advertising banners, Netflix queue, etc. The list is virtually endless and these are relatively harmless examples. Next, consider that an attack can invisibly hover these buttons below the users’ mouse, so that when they click on something they visually see, they actually are clicking on something the attacker wants them to. […]" source -hackademix.net/2008/09/27/clickjacking-and-noscript/
I was just trying to help your readers be aware should they not already know this evil trick.
You still, and always will rock in my book Dan,(even if my posts don't get approved -lol) your motivation is literally priceless!
In reply to Jim's list by Aaron Wall, well. I have to admit that I cannot remember seeing a salesletter for any internet marketing product that does not contain about 75-80% of those words. What does that leave us with? Noobies that have never been shown by anybody, good or bad, how to market on the net. When I started, my salesletter was something aling the lines of, "Buy my stuff, it works, it's cheap and it works." Never made a sale with that one, can't think why, lol.
The problem is, as I see it, that the language of marketing has been developed to almost FORCE the use of that list of words, and others like it, to get anyone to pay attention to the pitch. Therefore, like reflective safety-jackets, we see it so much that we become immune to it.
What do we do when that saturation-point finally hits? Believe me, it's not that far away.
Cheers, Blogger-Bruce
I wouldn't ever want you to name names. But what the Ghost of Gary Halbert said would be great.
The United States is too litigious to do something as risque as opening yourself up to a slander/libel suit. Should be good enough to teach people the signs. I've read through Gary's newsletter archive every year since I found it, so hopefully I'm ahead of the curve.
But a refresher from a new perspective never hurts.
Thanks, and I appreciate you writing this post.
Barry,
I swear I've never deleted any of your posts. And I'd really like to see the one you're talking about that didn't make it through. Maybe the automatic spam filter picked up on something.
Could you please try posting it again?
Thanks!
Dan
Hey Dan,
All I can do is laugh at myself. When I made my 2nd post and it immediately went live on your blog I felt like a knuckle head.
I must have taken too long writing the one I assumed was deleted because I got interrupted and most likely the session timed out, completely my fault …dooh.
Have a great week!
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