How To Make MILLIONS In The Guru Business
Tuesday, 12:13 AM
Dear Friend,
Not sure if you noticed but I've been AWOL from the blog for a while.
I'll explain why in just a minute.
But first, I'd like to have a little chat with you.
See, I could really use your help with a problem.
It's been bothering me for a while… and I would really like an honest answer.
Oh, wait a second. I forgot a quick item of business I need to cover first.
I'm afraid I've got some bad news…
You Can't Hire Me Anymore!
Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE to hire me… but the pool of potential clients who would meet my new stringent qualifications is infinitesimally small.
As I've mentioned in the blog, I mostly do my own projects… but occasionally I like to do some client work, too.
I took a couple clients last year and the early part of this year. They were all great people and I'm glad to know them.
And even though I've been at this a while, this old dog learned some new tricks on how to successfully work with clients.
You may be expecting me to transition into my "clients suck" tirade… but that definitely is NOT the case with these guys.
ALL of them are salt of the earth people. I love them and would like to have their babies… if I had the plumbing for it.
And no, I didn't just get lucky in the "copywriting client lottery". They were carefully screened before I agreed to take the gig. THAT'S why it was a pleasure working with them. (Freelancers, take note.)
Anyhoo… my recent client experiences reinforced several things in my slightly demented brain:
1. Client work can be fun and exciting… when you work with the RIGHT clients.
2. They will never do EVERYTHING you tell them to do… regardless of your track record of success. (This is normal. Don't get mad at them… just put your persuasion skills to use and get them to think what you told them to do was THEIR idea. THEN they'll do it.)
3. An experienced copywriter/entrepreneur/marketer with a proven track record is worth a literal FORTUNE to the right client.
After seeing the results my clients were getting, I finally realized…
I'm Not Charging Enough!
I used to charge $15,000 to write a package and usually some kind of royalty based on performance.
I'll never forget the first time I quoted that price. I was glad I did it on a phone with a mute button… otherwise the client would have heard me snickering nervously while cringing.
It was wayyyy outside my comfort zone. It seemed like a king's ransom at the time.
Now I realize when I work with the right client, compared to his return on investment, $15k is chump change.
It's actually a disservice to your client to charge too little. It leaves him with a low perceived value about what you bring to the table… and compliance is much lower, too. (Again… freelancers, take note.)
So now, for me to even consider taking a client, my fee is a MINIMUM of $25,000 plus some kind of back end royalty based on performance.
I'm also somewhat sad to say I can no longer afford to work with start-ups. If you want to work with me, you need to have a business already doing a MINIMUM of $500,000/year (preferably $1 million+) in sales.
See, if I want to work with a start-up, I'll do it myself. It's MUCH easier, I can get things going MUCH faster… and it's INFINITELY more profitable.
That is why it's highly unlikely, even if you meet the qualifications, I'll accept you as a client.
It's just simple economics. I can make 100 to 10,000 times more money doing what I do for myself than doing it for most clients.
Which leads me to something I've been wanting to discuss with you for a while now.
I need your help with a problem that has been quite vexing for me.
And I'd like to get your opinion about it. But in order for me to do that…
We Need To Have An Adult Conversation…
I need to be totally transparent with you about some thoughts and fears I'm dealing with… and that is extremely "non guru".
The guru is the perfect guy on the pedestal… and to STAY on the pedestal, the guru needs to perpetuate that myth.
But I'm going to do the exact opposite and share the kind of problems gurus aren't supposed to have… and DEFINITELY aren't supposed to let anybody see.
Before I personally mentored with him, Gary Halbert was the guru on the pedestal for me.
He could walk on water, turn water into wine and everything he touched turned to gold… or so I thought.
After I got to know him, I discovered he was just as screwed up as the rest of us. And even though he was "the greatest copywriter in the world" he still had his fair share of flops and failures.
So today, instead of playing the role of the perfect guru like I'm SUPPOSED to do, I'm going to open up about some stuff I've been worried about.
I hope that doesn't hurt your opinion of me… and I hope you don't discard the message because you discovered the messenger isn't perfect.
To properly explain this problem, I'm going to reveal some stuff you'll probably NEVER hear from any guru.
I don't mean to offend anybody or hurt anybody's business… but in order for you to understand some things, I have to pull back the curtain and reveal some stuff nobody has been willing to tell you… up until now.
Sure, this stuff is talked about behind closed doors… but disclosing it to the "herd" has been expressly prohibited.
In fact, by simply hitting the WordPress "publish" button a few minutes ago…
I May Have Just Committed Career Suicide!
Whatever.
I'll survive.
See, I don't make my living as a guru. I really DO what I'm teaching… and THAT is how I support my bad habits of eating regularly and sleeping indoors.
So, in spite of the backlash I'll probably get for this, I'm going to talk about some stuff I'm not supposed to talk about.
Enough set-up. Let's get into this…
Remember when I got the million dollar buyout offer on one of my businesses?
I was kinda excited about that.
My plan was to spend a few months goofing off and then turn DobermanDan.com into a REAL business selling info products about direct response marketing.
But I turned down the offer… and this blog has stayed a side project that makes very little money.
After having time to think about it, I believe accepting that million dollar offer would have been a big mistake… for a couple reasons.
First of all, I recently started focusing on that business a lot more. (The economy has FORCED me to.) At John Carlton's suggestion, I hired a really good assistant marketer/copywriter to help me take it to the next level.
So far, things are really looking up.
In fact, if everything keeps up like this, that $1 million dollar offer will look like chump change.
So that's one reason I'm glad I didn't sell the business.
Secondly, if I had sold the business and jumped into the guru biz full time, I would be just like so many other gurus… teaching stuff that was only successful in my distant memory.
Stepping up my involvement in my business recently has really forced me to dig, test and discover what's working RIGHT NOW!
There's no room for error or "throwing mud up against the wall".
Every penny invested has to be accountable and trackable. And if it doesn't return an acceptable ROI, that stuff has to be scrapped and the money applied to something that IS bringing in an acceptable ROI.
We live in a different world now, with a MUCH different economy than just a few short years ago. You can't just coast along with half-assed marketing and make money like you could before.
You really have to be on top of your marketing game to prosper in today's economy.
The principles of human nature and direct response selling never really change… but some techniques and delivery methods DO.
In my most humble (but accurate) opinion, if you want to be a good teacher, you have to actually be in the game… actively operating a business, testing new ideas, developing new products, testing new media, etc.
If you're not in the game, you're teaching based on theory… and you're misleading your students.
No matter how much I COULD make in the guru biz full time… I simply couldn't sleep at night if I thought I was misleading my students.
And trust me… there is a LOT of money to be made in the guru biz.
I'm not talking about a measly $50k or $100k a month. I'm talking about…
Tens Of MILLIONS Of Fungolas A Year!
How do I know that?
When I thought I was going to sell my business, I started figuring out my next step. I started studying successful people in the guru biz… and picking the brains of some very well known gurus.
And I discovered some very interesting trade secrets.
So today, without further adieu… I'm going to reveal…
(Drum roll, please)…
The formula for making the big bucks as a guru!
Step #1 For Making Millions As A Guru…
Hang Out Your "Guru Shingle" On The Internet
That's it.
You don't even have to have successfully done what you're teaching. (Just like most college professors.)
You think I'm kidding?
I'm as serious as a heart attack.
Heck, I even worked with one of these guys for a brief period.
He was a completely raw, wet behind the ears rookie back then.
He did have some talent for writing… but as far as writing copy that could produce results, he was a completely unproven entity.
Yes, he did mentor under a well known copywriting guru for a few weeks… but nothing he wrote was ever run or tested.
He had never run a direct response business nor had ever worked for a direct response business.
He had no experience whatsoever in the direct response business. It just appeared that he might be able to write some copy that MIGHT work if he kept at it.
So guess what this newbie did after just a couple months of learning the THEORY of direct response copywriting without having any real world experience… or any proof whatsoever that he could write response-pulling copy?
He put up a website claiming he was…
One of the best copywriters in the world!
And even more amazingly… he started getting clients paying him 5-figures to write copy for them.
After his mentor discovered this guy's website, he called me in a rage and said, "Dan, so-and-so is a FRAUD! And I'm going to expose him."
I convinced his mentor that it would be a mistake to expose him. He should just let karma take care of everything.
Even though this guy initially misled people about his skill level and experience, he got good at writing copy. And he got good FAST.
I guess he HAD to after jumping into the deep end of the pool while still just in the beginner swim class.
So he lied about his experience level, misled people, took their money for copywriting assignments when he had almost ZERO real world experience… and according to his mentor, a rather famous guru, he even misquoted him in a testimonial on his website.
That was enough to get him some clients paying him a decent chunk of change to write copy for them.
But when he REALLY started making the big money was when he started promoting himself as a full fledged guru… and selling high priced information products, coaching groups, master mind groups, etc.
So that's step #1. You don't have to be an expert at all… just CLAIM you're one and start promoting yourself.
Let's move on to…
Step #2:
Create A Larger Than Life Persona
God knows you can't just be YOURSELF!
Nooooooo! That's not good enough.
You have to be that perfect "guru on a pedestal" we talked about earlier.
You have to be better than the rest of us mere mortals.
You have to make people envy your "rock star" lifestyle, filled with non-stop fun and excitement… even if it's not true.
You're perfect. You never fail and everything you touch turns to gold.
Every business you start, every website you create, every sales letter you write is a raging success… sucking in money "like a vacuum cleaner on steroids!!!" (Extra exclamation points added… just like on their website copy.)
And you have to give the appearance of being richer than Midas… even if you're broke and up to your eyeballs in debt.
Also, you can't just be "Richard Cranium, Internet Marketing Expert."
No, that won't build you a huge cult-like following of Kool Aid-drinking sycophants.
You have to create a unique persona, like "Richard Cranium, the lazy, works-only-one-hour-a-month, skateboarding, kazoo-playing, hippie guru."
Then do videos of you riding your skateboard, smoking trees and playing the kazoo at the beach all day, completely care-free… while your business "makes MILLIONS every month… totally on auto pilot!"
Post videos with you driving your Ferrari to the Playboy mansion to hang out with Hef and a bevvy of big breasted bikini-clad bimbos. (I LOVE alliteration!)
And don't forget… you need to build the dream for your starry-eyed followers so they'll believe they can get rich overnight, too:
"It was just two years ago I was a broke, shoeless, homeless loser, living on the beach and sleeping on my only possession… a surfboard… until I discovered the secrets to becoming an overnight millionaire on the Internet. Now I'm getting laid by super-models on my own private luxury jet… yadda yadda yadda…"
Uh huh.
My sources show the guy had a successful white collar job making 6-figures a year before going into the "how to make money"/Internet Marketing guru thing.
I'm not sure you can call living in a $850,000 dollar house in Florida "being homeless"… but… it MUST be true because there's one thing I'm SURE of…
A guru wouldn't lie!
Moving on.
Step #3:
Create "BSO" Products
Remember those three-eyed little green aliens in the movie Toy Story?
They were fascinated with "the claw".
They thought it was some kind of magical entity that was going to rescue them and carry them away to freedom.
They pointed to it and spoke its name in quiet reverence…
"The claaawwww!"
That's EXACTLY what you need as a guru… a fan base with the same fascination and reverence for your products as those little three-eyed green guys had for the claw.
A list of Kool Aid drinkers that believe your products are going to magically rescue them from being broke and miserable… without having to put in any real work.
Selling plain old fashioned direct marketing products will NOT get that kind of response.
You have to create what I call BSO's…
Bright Shiny Objects!
They have to be BETTER and more exciting than regular old marketing products.
You have to give them sexy names like Massive Mind Control Conversions… or Pumped Up Prospect Pipeline Power. (It HAS to be good if you use alliteration in the title, right?)
And here's the good news…
They're easy to create because the content can be 100% complete B.S.!
They don't have to work. They just need to appear to be new, sexy and cutting edge.
Your products can't be about the tried and true direct marketing principles that haven't changed (and never will change) since Aaron Montgomery Ward mailed the first mail order catalog in 1872.
No, that's just not sexy enough.
Never mind that these principles are the keys to big success in direct response marketing… AND it's what your customers truly need to succeed.
It's not what they WANT.
And that's good news to many of the young IM gurus because…
They Don't Know The Principles
Of Successful Direct Response Marketing!
If the truth be told, they couldn't teach successful direct response principles or create a product about them if their lives depended on it.
They've never studied the old time masters like John Caples… Claude Hopkins… John E. Kennedy… George Haylings… Robert Collier… Thomas Hall … Gary Halbert… Gene Schwartz… Joe Sugarman… Ted Nicholas… all the old direct response and mail order guys.
They've learned from other young IM gurus who were only successful during a booming economy… who also don't know the timeless principles of successful direct response marketing.
We're seeing many of them drop like flies lately because they're completely clueless about how to prosper in a recession.
But, hey… it's OK. That's not the stuff you can sell for $1,999 or $2,497.
It's too basic… too non-sexy… not bright and shiny enough.
The BSO products that sell for big bucks are…
… A new way to "trick" Google into sending more traffic….
… "Black hat" techniques that bring quick riches without the hassle of learning how to market properly…
… A cutting edge method that tricks thousands of people into your "pipeline"… opting them into lists they have no interest in… and aren't even aware they're being opted into.
… Secret new systems that take all those unqualified prospects you tricked into joining your "pipeline"… and somehow magically convert them into paying customers…
… And a host of other BSO's filled with B.S. content, ad nauseum…
Most of the people buying these BSO's are newbies… and what they REALLY need is information about the principles of direct response marketing… online and OFFLINE.
But that's not sexy enough… and it's hard to get $1,999 or $2,497 selling what REALLY works.
I'm quite skilled at some offline marketing techniques that I've used to DOUBLE the sales of online businesses… in less than 60 days.
This stuff works like crazy… and most Internet marketers are leaving a LOT of money on the table month after month by not using this offline stuff.
Almost NOBODY is teaching it or offering products that teach it, either.
I mentioned this to Perry Marshall, the Google Adwords guru, at the System Seminar a few years ago. I told him there's a gap in the marketplace and it's a sin nobody in the IM crowd is teaching this stuff.
Perry said, "You're right, Dan. That stuff is exactly what people in this niche NEED to make a lot of money. But it's not what they WANT."
What they want, of course, is the BSO.
And if you want to make a lot of money as a guru, that's what you have to sell.
Sooooo… once you've created your BSO, you need to move on to…
Step #4:
Do WHATEVER It Takes
To Get Into The IMGOBC
You know what the IMGOBC is, don't-cha?
Probably not 'cuz I just made it up.
It's the Internet Marketing Good Ole Boys Club!
I should clarify something. I only made up the name… the group really does exist.
It's an elite little clique… and membership is NOT open to just anybody.
If you can get in with them… you'll have joint venture opportunities that will make you a small fortune! (Before refunds, of course.)
These guys have huge lists of insanely rabid followers… and their "herd" is accustomed to shelling out 4 and 5-figures for BSO products.
The customers don't usually have a good track record of implementation… but they DO have a great track record of buying expensive BSO products.
Make no mistake… these guys control the "Cadillac" of lists for BSO products.
The IMGOBC is the coveted "inner circle"… you've truly arrived when you're accepted into the fold.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news… but chances are you'll NEVER get into the IMGOBC or have the opportunity to joint venture with them.
First of all, it's a pretty closed deal. You have to know somebody to even be considered.
And secondly, you also have to have your own huge list of rabid Kool Aid-drinking followers so you can reciprocate when you do joint ventures.
See, when the IMGOBC members mail your offer to their lists… you have to reciprocate at a later date by mailing THEIR offers to your list.
So if 20 guys mail your offer to their lists… you have to mail 20 different offers to YOUR list… usually multiple times.
And if you've ever been on their lists… the marketing incest just gets out of hand.
You're getting the same offers 10 different times from 20 different gurus… all promoting the same stuff.
It's enough to make your head explode! (Or unsubscribe from all their lists.)
By the way… have you noticed that when these guys launch a brand new "Super Duper Traffic Generation Secrets On Steroids" BSO course… they always sell it exclusively through joint ventures?
Am I the only person who finds the irony and humor in that?
Anyhoo… this incestuous little group also holds the key to you getting invited to speak and pitch your BSO's at the biggest IM seminars in the country.
And THAT is one of the fastest secrets to wealth and fame as a guru.
Again… am I the only hombre to find the irony in that?
A guru selling products that claim you can make a fortune on the Internet while sitting at home drinking beer in your skivvies is on the road pitching his products at seminars 30 to 40 weeks out of the year.
Nobody else has picked up on that little incongruity?
Anyhoo… yours truly will probably never be invited into the IMGOBC.
If I ever had the chance of getting in with them, I blew it the minute I hit the "publish" button on this post.
And I think I'm OK with that.
In fact, it may be a GOOD thing. Only time will tell.
We already started segueing into this earlier so let's list our next step to making serious bank as a guru…
Step #5:
Pitch Your BSO Products From The Stage
At All The Big Internet Marketing Seminars
Need I say anything more about this step that wasn't already covered?
There are several other steps I could add… but I think that's enough for now.
Look… if you've got the stomach for it, you can make a LOT of money in the guru business with just these 5 steps.
I do NOT have the stomach for it. And that brings me to the problem that's been bothering me.
You see, I've gained a lot of valuable entrepreneurial experience over the past 20 years or so.
And I've arrived at a point in my life where I'd like to start sharing that experience with people serious about improving their lives and making more money without sacrificing an enjoyable lifestyle.
So I would like to transition into making myself available for more teaching… and providing products about direct response and online marketing, coaching programs and possibly seminars.
But I refuse to play the guru game as I just described to you.
So before I move forward and invest any more time and money in this…
I'd Like To Know What YOU Think:
1. Do you think it's possible to sell marketing products with REAL value without all the BSO hype and B.S. normally required to sell guru-type products?
2. Do you think people will pay for non-sexy solutions for building a direct response/online business and making more money… tried & true honest stuff that REALLY works… but requires some study and (gasp!) work?
3. Or does the majority really prefer to be lied to and deluded and sold the B.S. "make more money than God only working 3 hours a week" type products?
4. Would people buy a marketing product showing them how to DOUBLE their business within 90 days… even if it had nothing to do with the Internet, e-mail, PPC or whatever the newest BSO "technique du jour" is currently promoted by the IMGOBC?
5. Can an honest guy with a long track record of success be successful in this business by selling non-hypey, non B.S. products, services, coaching programs, etc. – without all the typical IM guru hype and B.S.?
I would really appreciate your honest opinion.
Thanks for reading this rather long post and giving me the opportunity to rant a while. It was therapeutic for me.
I look forward to reading your comments.
All the best,
P.S. For several reasons I'm not permitted to disclose here, I can no longer share my most important money-making, life-changing… and in some instances, life-SAVING lessons on this blog.
There are several somewhat shocking reasons I cannot reveal this information in a public online forum.
You CAN get access to these secrets though… if you're truly serious about becoming financially independent and having a secure financial future.
Just click here to discover where I'm now sharing most most profitable and advanced secrets.
Answers to the big 5 questions in order:
1. Anti-hype is the angle. This blog post is essentially your sales letter.
2. Even multi-nationals with a seemingly finite R&D budget don't roll out new products or services overnight. If the average markerter can comprehend that – they are qualified.
3. Present work-to-profit ratio that cascades steadily over time. Conversly, show proven examples of what happens to hype-driven products that take off too fast.
4. Same answer as "2"
5. Put it to you this way – I dropped out of university because I couldn't stand "learning" from marketing PHDs with 0% field battle on their records. I wanted to learn from marketing warriors who've lost thousands of dollars and spent huge amounts of time testing and losing the fight here and there, but keeping their heads up until they stumbled upon the right formula.
That's one thing about gurus – it's all about their successes. What about the losses -why did they happen. Why has no one rolled that book out yet – "My 52 failed campaigns, why they happened and why they'll never happen again"?
Hope this helps.
Dan, I'd like say yes you can .. but like Perry said, it isn't what the majority want.
I am sure you could do very well teaching those of us who have also been disillusioned (and our numbers are definitely growing) but you may struggle to get the multi-million dollar launches in the near future.
Perhaps if you start the Honest Internet Marketing New Boys Club your empire might eventually crush the BSO pitching club (and that would be pretty sight to behold).
I know I am appalled at the trail of devastation they leave behind without so much as a glance back.
Hey Dan,
Long time!
I was cracking-up because this is soooo true!
"By the way… have you noticed that when these guys launch a brand new “Super Duper Traffic Generation Secrets On Steroids” BSO course… they always sell it exclusively through joint ventures?"
But you know, the "magic button" approach is a staple of the Internet marketing community. It's not likely to go away any time soon.
I would hope there was still room for the "straight story" but all too often that involves work and if I have learned anything about selling it's that most people hate work. Did I say "hate"? I meant HATE.
But if you want to shock people…. honesty… well… geeze… that might be a whole new concept to some people… especially in the guru market.
Sadly I would have to agree with you on nearly every point, and most really do want to believe in point No. 3 more than anything else. That's why I have never really wanted to be a part of the work ethic…….or any other herd. I gave up working with others or someone else at nineteen years old, and looking back. I wouldn't change but a small thing or two.
Dan, those punk phonies are so enchanted with their own aroma that they never deliver the goods.
You, on the other hand, are the real deal. What's more, you actually CARE about your clients making a good living. One of my favorite things about you is that you find what is special about the client and their product, and polish it up to become a star. You're damn nurturing, for a manly man. It's wonderful.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by namarapets, John. John said: A nice #morning read about internet / #marketing "gurus" – http://dobermandan.com/how-to-make-millions-in-the-guru-business/ [...]
DAn,
Let me see if I can answer some of these questions from a different angle…
First, let me throw out a quote that might piss you or your readers off but, it is still true:
"It is a fact that people follow a man who simply says, 'Follow me.' By taking leadership, ironically, a person deserves leadership."
That quote is from the book The Traveler's Gift by Andy Andrews
As for your questions…
1. Do you think it’s possible to sell marketing products with REAL value without all the BSO hype and B.S. normally required to sell guru-type products?
YES. But it requires better copy, more intrigue and more proof in that copy.
2. Do you think people will pay for non-sexy solutions for building a direct response/online business and making more money… tried & true honest stuff that REALLY works… but requires some study and (gasp!) work?
YES. Because, it will come across as a new way to make money… and that's what they want "to make money", not earn it it, "make" it.
3. Or does the majority really prefer to be lied to and deluded and sold the B.S. “make more money than God only working 3 hours a week” type products?
I can tell you that in the Financial Newsletter biz, we run into the same problem. People want the penny stock that will shoot to the moon overnight and they practically ignore the best investments when we offer them.
Give someone the choice between a stock they've never heard of in a industry they know nothing about but with even chance of big gains, and they will take that over a dividend paying proven winner like Exxon or Walmart or Coca-Cola all day long.
4. Would people buy a marketing product showing them how to DOUBLE their business within 90 days… even if it had nothing to do with the Internet, e-mail, PPC or whatever the newest BSO “technique du jour” is currently promoted by the IMGOBC?
YES. It's "new and easy" and if the copy is good, they'll try ( by try I mean buy) the new and easy.
5. Can an honest guy with a long track record of success be successful in this business by selling non-hypey, non B.S. products, services, coaching programs, etc. – without all the typical IM guru hype and B.S.?
You'd have to define success first in order to answer that question.
Later,
McCool
DD-
1.yes
2.Yes
3.YES
4.YES
5.YES!!!
It is great to see you again here. Don't lose hope and please know that your opinion and teachings by example mean a great deal to me. Thanks for your beautiful transparency….
Great post Dan! I've been asking myself the same questions lately.
I wish I knew the answer!
Awesome article Dan, I've never heard of you before but Terry Dean recommended this article on facebook so I decided to check it out. I've never considered the irony of guru's selling their $2k super duper traffic exploding secrets courses strictly by JV's… quite amusing really!
As for you're questions at the end, the answer to whether you can build a solid business by teaching people the fundamentals and what they REALLY need to know… the answer is YES! It's evident to me that you have many decades of experience, a fantastic grasp of copywriting and that you're definetely someone I could learn off.
The problem that you've no doubt seen and that I see as well is that if you market your products/services as such the droves of opportunity seekers will probably be turned off. I think there's a happy medium though that you can strike, have a look at Jason Fladlien, you've probably heard of him allready but he markets with integrity, his information is great and he's built a great business teaching IM without being a douchebag. I have no doubt that you can do the same.
His products still attract opportunity seekers, but they're positioned in such a way that serious people focused on building a business such as myself are still very much interested in learning from his stuff as well.
As for buying a product that will show them how to double their business in 90 days, well it sounds great, and a ton like Stompernet's Formula 5 shiny box thing they released a while back in terms of positioning, that was a HUGE launch so the concept definetely works, so heck, if they can do it I don't see why you can't! You may not have the benefit of several dozen obnoxiously large mailing lists but to the SMARTER people who have realized that learning the fundamentals is more important then BSO's you're stuff will probably be a great investment.
But before selling anything big give away some good free content or a cheaper front end offer to prove you're stuff is awesome, you already know that, but heck, that's pretty much the only step seperating me right now from being a prime candidate for buying your products if they match the goals I'm currently working on reaching in my business, and that's being totally honest. I can tell you've got experience, success and that you're a great copywriter, now all I need to know for sure is that you're a great teacher and then in my mind you'll join the likes of Eben Pagan, Jason Fladlien and Ryan Deiss as someone I want to learn from.
P.S. I have no idea what compelled me to write such an in depth reply, but hopefully you find it useful in some way, good luck with your future plans!
Dan,
Glad to see you're back posting…
Recognize the frustration of tying in with the IMGOBC… but you should have known that going in…
Of course the world is looking for an honest man… the problem is most of the list registrants are not financially able to act. They typically take "a leap of faith" and cough up their last $$$ to placate their subconscious dreams of being able to fly… But as you said, they don't implement…
In my humble opinion the DM "copywriters" of today are self proclaimed, inexperienced people who have built a reputation based on their little or no cost capabilities of getting their messages out on the web. If a test campaign had a $20,000+ price tag on it, these folks would be no where. The " JV launch" premise is simply a way to get the kind of circulation that is needed to truly test an offer… and while there is no real front cost, the JV fees paid add up to much more than the traditions 1/3 attributed to the cost of advertising. But since there's no up front cost, it's done that way today. And yes, PT Barnum was right… and these guys are exploiting that segment.
Reminds me of an old ex-partner who changed his company name and return address every time he sent a new offer to his established sucker list. And while he got very, very rich, he had nothing of equity, nothing that could be sold to "cash out"… he just burnt bridge after bridge behind him and started new deals twice weekly.
So yes, Dan, the idea of teaching the established rules and methods of proven writers will have a market… in this world of "guru gurus" it is actually a USP and not a "rip off" of the famous artists school (you know what I'm referring to) and would be a refreshing breath of fresh air… It's an idea… a good idea… and it's worth testing.
Hi Dima,
Welcome to my neighborhood!
I really appreciate your comment… and based on your recommendation, I'll definitely check out Jason Fladlien.
Speaking of good honest knowledgeable gurus with integrity, Terry Dean is the man! He is on a very short list of people I trust and people I go to when I need the right answers. The very SECOND I found out he was publishing a newsletter, I couldn't get my credit card out fast enough to subscribe. I'm glad he referred you to my site.
Thanks again for your post. It was very helpful to me.
DD,
Best. Post. Ever.
Answer to questions 1-5:
Yes.
And you'll sleep like a smiling, cooing baby every night for the rest of your life.
Hey Mel,
This gave me a chuckle:
"If a test campaign had a $20,000+ price tag on it, these folks would be no where. "
We should get on the phone again soon. I'd like to interview you about your mail order and space ad experiences from "back in the day". And I'd like to record it, if you don't mind. That's valuable knowledge that is a lost art nowadays with the Internet generation.
Dude, you ARE the guru in your niche. One of the best I've ever seen.
We need to talk soon. I'm FINALLY going to finish our project together. It's next up on the list.
Thanks, Bart.
We need to hang out together one of these days.
Hi Dan,
I will be very brief with my answers.But first thanks for exposing this 'guru'.
Though his ID is still a mistry to me.
Why can't these 'newbies'be patient?Why allow themselves to be victims
of get-rich-quick scams?Why don't they want to 'soil'their hands?Why?Why?Why?
GREED…GREED…..GREED.
Haven't these 'boys' heard of"if the deal looks too good,think twice"?
I could say more,Dan
Now to the answers:
1.Yes
2.Yes
3.No
4.Yes
5.Yes
Hey Sean,
When anybody who works in marketing for the "big boys" speaks… I listen… intently.
I have to admit… I was completely flabbergasted by your answer to #3. I guess I had the stereotype that all investors who subscribe to investment newsletters were all the logical, analytical, Warren Buffet-type guys who wouldn't be plagued with that kind of "easy money" mindset.
Thanks, Sean!
I may be mistaken but I think people in their hearts know #3 is just a fantasy… unless you win the lottery or something. But they WANT to believe in it… so the buy the get rich quick stuff.
I lost money in every single business venture I started for almost 10 years. My first mail order biz was what I FINALLY made money with.
That was a REALLY tough 10 years… and I WISHED there was a get rich quick business. But the only thing I knew to do was keep moving forward. THAT was my "get rich quick" plan.
BTW, after I started that mail order biz, it was another 3 years until I started making what I considered the "big bucks" back then.
So, all in all, my get rich quick plan to 13 years!
Always nice to hear from you, Courtney.
I've seen the money that can made in the "push button riches" niches. (Hey, that rhymes!) And I'd be lying if I said I haven't been tempted by the dark side. I believe I could make a LOT of money there.
But I just can't do it. I like sleeping well at night.
Hey Dean,
God bless the Kiwis and viva New Zealand!
Did I mention that one of those "salt of the earth" clients I took on last year is a Kiwi?
I can honestly say that I have never met a person yet from NZ who wasn't a really nice person. I hope to visit one day. (Can I crash in your guest bedroom? lol)
The "Honest Internet Marketing New Boys Club"! I like this idea.
I think I'll charge $100,000/year to be a member… and what you get in return is a little gif of our official seal with the Honest Internet Marketing New Boys Club logo. If you don't pay the $100k each year, your seal gets un-activated and you lose our endorsement.
And I'll market it to all the guys in the IMGOBC and make them feel like total schmucks if they're not a member … and it will cost them thousands of dollars in lost sales, etc.
I'll have a totally monopoly on those guys… just like the Better Business Bureau… if you're not a member, nobody trusts you, you're obviously a scammer, yadda yadda yadda…
Maybe that's how we'll get our revenge on the IMGOBC!
I'm just joking around but somebody really could make a fortune doing this.
Dan,
Wow, thanks for the compliment!
Sure, I'd be happy to discuss whatever you like… and while it "goes without saying, " I'll need a list of your questions to give answers that educate while entertaining the listener(s)…
Mel
Hi Walt,
Sleeping like a smiling, cooing baby every night for the rest of my life sounds good to me!
Thanks!
I'm with Walt above, probably the Best Post Ever
Thanks, Caleb. It was fun writing it.
You should see the stuff I edited. I found it funny but I was worried it was too controversial.
Hi Ali,
I've often asked myself the same thing.
Thanks for your feedback.
Great stuff, John. Thanks!
I'm MORE than qualified write that "52 failed campaigns" book!
And I could write volume 1, volume 2, volume 3… Heck, the series would never end.
Great article and very down to earth. Excitement and enthusiasm (EE) sells – so that element can't be eliminated. People need to get excited and infected with enthusiasm to buy. If you can sell the EE you are in the house. If you want clients long-term don't fake it. Airlines hostesses are taught to smile when talking to passengers because passengers will accept anything they are told with a smile.
In the NBA fans get excited about LeBron James though he hasn't won a ring. In time the EE will wear off if no rings come. People still get the EE about Michael Jordan because he generated the EE and was real with 6 rings to back the EE up. Muhammad Ali was real and got the EE.
You can be real and get the big bucks it's just that few people set the bar the that high with a duplicatable example. Maybe most people won't ascend that high, but they need to know and believe that they can. Anything above what they are now is worth the investment.
Hi Terris,
Great mini lesson the importance of EE!
I love it. Finally someone to show the nonsense of people trying to sell stuff about selling, but have never sold outside of this market before. Fantastic post and message.
As for your questions: you have got me waiting to hear what you are coming up with. I am not waiting to see if you will write good copy and market it. I believe you just did.
Thank you.
Wow! You're good for my ego, Niels.
Thanks you!
Great story Dan!
I love the sarcasm, and the answer to all your questions are YES, YES, YES, YES, and YES.
I can feel that "Gary Halbert" coming through in this post…and the Doberman is back!
Thanks, Joseph.
If you liked the sarcasm, you should have seen the stuff that was cut in the editing process. Brutal!
Hey Dan,
Good to hear from you again! It has been a while… I was just wondering today what happened to our dear old Doberman Dan…
Anyway, to respond to your questions…
I actually think that all your questions are variations of the same question; Can one be successful in the business opportunity education arena by resorting to just the fundamentals of direct response marketing & entrepreneurship, and, at the same time NOT resorting to hypey persuasion tactics & sleazy marketing practices?
Well, my answer is…. Yes and No.
No… because, like what Perry Marshall said, selling people what they WANT is much, much easier than selling them what they NEED. And this, I believe, is a fundamental aspect of most of humanity. They are the 80 in the 80/20 of any group of humans. And I don't think this is going to change any time soon.
However…
Yes… because, the 20 that is your market is going to be the most loyal and rabid; entrusting you with everything including their first borns. Plus, they are going to be the most successful within the entire market anyway, so they have more money to spend with you. So in the long run, you'd be better off than the IMGOBC crowd.
I can think of one very good example… Dan Kennedy.
So I guess my answer to you is, in totality, a NO.
Furthermore, being a spiritual person… I believe in the long run, Karma will ensure that everything works out to benefit the righteous.
Hope I helped,
Andy
P.S. I have a bone to pick with you Dan… Because of you, now, I am hooked on the Travis Mcgee books!! ;D
Thanks for sending me my first one…
Dan,
To answer your questions in a nutshell, I think most people who buy IM stuff are looking for get rich quick, but those who are serious about building a business are interested in what really works. The challenge, as you said, is that what really works isn't sexy or shiny.
I think you can make money teaching what really works. I suspect, however, that it will be a much slower build to large profitability because you'll have to rely more on people telling other people (not just emailing their lists) that they need to buy your materials.
Having said that, I think you will have a much longer life-cycle with your customers than the gurus because, hey, you'll be building a real business and not a flash in the pan marketing launch.
Just my two dollars (inflation, you know)…
- John
Dude, make a part 2 "The Unedited Stuff" and bring it on!
I don't say this often, but this post was epic. One of your best.
It shouldn't take too long to find out which guru's take this post personally. If people ignore you, refuse to acknowledge your presence or intentionally avoid eye contact you'll know which side of the fence they roost on.
I thought it was a great post that will probably strengthen many of your valued frienships.
Can an honest marketer avoid starving to death? Great question. I think it depends on the product their selling. The worse a product is the more BS it's going to take to sell it.
There are a handfull of honest guru's that have a nice balance to their copy that do quite well. Could they sell more if they cranked up the BS factor? Probably yes, but would they sleep as well? I think it's important for people to be honest with themself about how much BS they are willing to take and give out.
Love it!
Just about everyone is a guru, self-help or business coach now a days aren't they?(spare me -lol)
Don't worry, you didn't mention any names so your career is safe.
Speaking of mentioning names, ever heard of Salty Droid (self proclaimed unveiler of all IM things BS)? http://saltydroid.info/frank-kern-list-contol-bon… – R-Rated but this blog is the most hilarious guru slayer I have ever seen with quite a large group of active followers!
No hard feelings if you feel the link inappropriate and needs to be removed, just figured you'd get a kick out of it.
Anyway, whatever happened to your "less than the cost of cable tv" coaching program, hmmm?
Take care,
B.
Hi Jeff,
Good points.
And yes, I'll probably be ostracized at a few seminars in the future.
Thanks, Joe!
I hadn't looked at it that way, Andy. Thanks.
It reminded me of what I heard someone say (I think it was Dan Kennedy)… sell them what they want… but give them what they NEED.
BTW, it warms my heart to know you'll forever remember me as the guy who gave you your first Travis McGee novel. Enjoy your new addiction!
The Salty Droid is hilarious. What a sharp wit. Brutal… just brutal.
I just hope I never do something to get on his bad side.
[...] some kind of magical entity that was going to rescue them and carry them away to freedom. …Next Page eczova 20 July 2010 client experiences aliens, client experiences, toy story, true gems [...]
"… those who are serious about building a business are interested in what really works."
And that is a pretty small group.
But like you said, probably much better customers who will implement and stick with you for the long run.
Dan, those punk phonies are too enchanted with their own aroma to deliver the goods.
You, on the other hand, are the real deal. What's more, you actually CARE about your clients making a good living. One of my favorite things about you is the way you uncover what is special about the client and their product, and polish it up to become a star. You're damn nurturing, for a manly man. It's wonderful.
Amazing post Dan
You and Drayton Bird and Perry Marshall appear to be telling the truth.
The rest are… well, even "the most ripped-off copywriter" now hammers his list with constant pitches.
IMO most people want something for nothing, and will continue to pay the gurus for instant, effortless success.
Thanks, Dave.
I don't know if I've ever written about this on my but I knew Perry Marshall pre-guru days… back when he still had a job and I recently declared my freedom from mine.
He's still the same now as he was then… a nice, honest man who sincerely desires to help people. He's been branded an the Adwords guru but he's much more than that. I'd be happy to pay money to sit in a room and listen to Perry talk about ANYTHING related to direct response marketing.
And I really hope I'll have the opportunity to meet Drayton some day soon.
All the pitches you're getting from the most ripped off copywriter is one of the problems I talked about in the post. Once you get these guys to send your pitch to their lists now you're indebted to them and have to send their pitches to your list. And with seminar attendance being in the toilet lately… in order to get enough people to fill a seminar it's practically mandatory to do a bunch of JVs.
I did a phone consultation with John Carlton back in 2006 and he was able to solve a big problem for me that has been extremely profitable every month since. I'm also in a master mind group with him right now. Plus, he's also a former Halbert protege… so I really trust and respect John. I listen very carefully when he speaks.
If you ever get the chance to get to know him, you'll discover he is one of the most loyal guys you could ever have in your corner. He's a "go to guy" like Halbert used to talk about. He is good for his word and if he says he has your back… you can take that to the bank.
Thanks for the post, Dan. I couldn't agree more. And believe me, I've spent more than chump change on programs offered by the gurus.
Any time I see the "auto-pilot income" phrase I quiver with dread about the BS I know is coming. Now, truth be told, some of these gurus really are making a lot of money selling stuff, but the reality is they started making money several million web sites ago (meaning before the last 10 million web sites were created by people trying to make easy money). And now the way they do it on "auto-pilot" is by paying other people to do all the work. So the bottom line is, while they're enjoying a their lifestyles of the rich and famous, for the buyer of their courses to make one buck, they're going to have to make it a full time job right from the get-go. Guys like Mark Ling come to mind here.
I wrote a blog piece about the dishonesty in IM gurudom and raised the question, if a guy is making all the money he claims selling stuff – especially affiliate marketing – why would he take the time to create and market a course teaching others his methods? Let's see: continue making 8 figures a year and increase it by replicating, or take the time to create and market a course teaching his trade secrets that might make him 50 grand?
Dan, I think there are a lot of people who would find an honest approach refreshing. You've got the beginning of a good list right here. And with referrals from your initial list, you could easily triple it. Just ask us. You don't need no stinking old boys club.
Thanks, Owen.
I've been thinking about asking my subscribers for referrals to other people who might be interested in subscribing.
I tried it a couple years ago when my list was quite a bit smaller and it didn't work very well. I think most people had good intentions of doing it, but never actually did. I gave them a free report anyway.
That's the conundrum… I need to build a bigger subscriber list and the best way to do that is through JVs. But I don't want to be affiliated with a lot of people in the guru biz.
Hey Dan,
Great post. You really rattled a few cages now…but the Kool-Aid mob don't wanna hear it. Three monkey syndrome.
But for the more level headed and serious among us let us take a step back in time and look at the second greatest sales letter ever written:
How to win friends and influence people, by Dale Carnegie. It sold many thousands if not millions of people on his courses as well as making a very nice ROI on the sales letter (book) itself.
It is direct response mail long copy , targeting and testing perfection.
Two step classic marketing system at its best
(Damn, if I could only get people to pay me to read my sales letters!!!)
In short then, an answer to all your questions: YES even no:3
Tailor Ole Carnegie's principles into any category or market and zoom goes the ROI. Won't work on the Kool-Aid gang though………. Success comes from help, and help is at the end of our arms, and they will never stoop to working at a thing until it is successful.
Good stuff, Thomas.
"Success comes from help, and help is at the end of our arms…"
How true.
Hi Dan,
Yes. As a brand spankin newbie, I'm looking for the sort of instruction and guidance in real, practical, and up-to-date techniques, PLUS timeless principles of copywriting and marketing.
You're tired of hype. You know there are good, ordinary, hard-working folk like me who don't want hype. The Internet is a pasture and we're trying to cross it without slipping and falling in a hot pile.
I want to go through the hard work required to become and remain a true professional copywriter.
Right now I'm going through The Ultimate Sales Letter and learning how to write a sales letter.
Looking forward to hearing more about what you're planning to offer.
Thank you for your gutsy post. You seem like the real thing. I heard you on an interview with Ben Settle and have been looking forward to reading your blog ever since. So glad you're back.
Kevin
I'm the only guru you need, jerky.
No food, no walk, no poop, no service.
Ruff.
Donner The DOBERMAN
<a href="http://www.DOBERMANdan.com" target="_blank">www.DOBERMANdan.com
They always said this breed would turn on you.
"The Internet is a pasture and we're trying to cross it without slipping and falling in a hot pile."
That's awesome, Kevin. One of these days, with your permission, I'm going to swipe that and use it in a sales letter or blog post.
This is probably one of the best guru-bashing posts I have read. Whatever losses this might have caused you are hidden gain. There's plenty of people out there who aren't willing to drag themselves through the gutter to make a buck who are very interested in learning what you have to teach. You might not hit a guru-level payout of $1,000,000 in 23 seconds. But considering you seem to be into it more for the teaching than the money, the available market could make it very worth your while to "donate" some time to rearing us cubs.
By the way, you mentioned in an earlier comment about something you tried doing to grow your list when it was much smaller. Even if that didn't work, you've been doing something right, because when I first started reading your blog, a knock out post like this generated a landslide of comments numbering around one or two dozen.
As I post this, you're at 53. Fifty-three. Yeah, no worries on finding people willing to pay to learn real direct response, methinks. Let the tail-chasers busy themselves with the latest BSO.
I've been there. On the end of the stick that lost to a so call guru. You have to deliver on your promises or word gets out.
Can a guy make an honest living? Yes! And you can do more with honesty than lies any day. I'm not in copywriting business. But I can get an e-commerce business to the top of Google. I never lie to my customers and they seem to take mishaps, etc. with a grain of salt.
I think it's all about how you treat your clients, students and customers that's remembered and past down through word of mouth.
My motto is: Build on honesty…and gain life long respect.
"Build on honesty…and gain life long respect."
And you sleep much better at night, too.
"Let the tail-chasers busy themselves with the latest BSO."
Tail chasers… that's funny… I like it.
Apparently there is a LOT of money selling to the tale chasers. You can sell crappy BSOs that don't really work… and sell them at high price points… leaving big numbers of pissed off disillusioned people in your wake. But since there are so many new tail chasers constantly coming into the market, you can still operate a successful business like in this manner.
When you look at it from strictly a numbers standpoint, it's a GREAT market.
Holy smokes! This is a brilliant post. Definitely going to share this one.
And by the way, don't feel bad. I will never be a part of the IMGOBC either. I made sure of it when I posted that expose back in January.
Ryan
Holy smokes! This is a brilliant post. Will definitely be sharing this one.
By the way, don't feel too bad. I will never be a part of the IMGOBC either. I made sure of it when I posted that expose on my blog last January.
Ryan
Yeah, Ryan… we're the IMGOBC outcasts for life.
My oh my.
First off, you are an excellent copy writer. Your arguments are terrific and your word choice is compelling. The pacing is a bit slow for the topic matter but you steer around that magnificently.
While I read this I concluded that you plan to launch a new product in the near future. This lays the groundwork. Great! That means you’ve been working hard behind the scenes. But why? If you are pulling down $25k an engagement you don’t need to sell ebooks and DVDs. Do you want to be the next Brian Clark?
But what really surprised me was how hard you chastised the good old boys club. You are correct, they do market each other’s products. However, it tends to be at a controlled pace, which means they communicate with each other and share a calendar so their release dates do not compete. They don’t combine forces for free either. The reason they sell other guru’s products to their personal lists is because every sale earns a 30% to 60% affiliate commission.
If you cannot use this marketing power, how will you substitute it?
Dan,
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Excellent post, sir. And I'm glad you're back, too. I was getting DobermanDan Dee-tees.
Doberman Dan dee tees! lol
Thanks, Michel.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Michel Fortin, Linda Turner. Linda Turner said: RT @michelfortin: Doberman Dan : How To Make MILLIONS In The Guru Business http://ff.im/-oJfE3 [...]
LOL!… reminds me of 2 guys who's initials start with B & B…. this is a "supplement" powered post there Dan!… ;-P
Now, I'm going to completely agree with you… too many "fake it until you make it" guys out there… you've heard me rail against them for years… it's sad, and it many ways it's helping to destroy and bring massive scrutiny (including governmental) to the industry… but hell be damned, they've got pockets to line, fast cars to buy, expensive "adventures" to participate in & people to impress!…
One thing you've heard me say in the past and that I talk about at seminars/teleseminars is this…
"When you're traveling down the 'marketing' trail you're going to come to a fork in the road… at the base of that fork will be a sign that says:
'People are more willing to pay for their dreams than they are for the results'…
When you read that sign it's going to be dependent upon you which trail you take… you can go down the path where you create real products & services that actually help people achieve the dreams they have, even though they may be 1 in 1000 people… or you can go down the path where you say 'screw em, they'll pay for anything so why not take them while I can?' (I call this going to the dark side)…
Unfortunately a great many will take the wrong trail and head down the path to being walking, talking, breathing lies… their own needs, wants and avarice superseding those of others…
Which path would you choose?… Choose wisely…"
Now excuse me while I create a gangbuster, millionaire-making, uber-cash generating, you'll be skunk-stinkin' rich 2-hour infoproduct all while in my thong, drinking Mimosa's, smoking $50 stogies and being pleasured by $2k an hour hookers…
TB
Hey Tony,
I've missed you!
You remember that all the way back in 1995 you spoke with me about my very first mail order project that was barely making it… and you helped me turn it into a success. That was a BIG turning point for me.
At the very LEAST I owe you a couple mimosas, a bunch of $50 cigars and several $2k/hour hookers!
Seriously, dude… it warms my heart to see your comment here. I miss our phone chats.
[...] You don't have to be an expert to create an info-product! [...]
You're right. It is fantastic from a business perspective. In fact, selling to the tail chasers is a topic which comes up about once a month in my mastermind group. So tempting. But I have to live with myself, so…
By the way, you've likely seen this already, but you got linked to on Aaron Wall's SEObook.com blog. Congrats!
http://www.seobook.com/ryan-deiss-perpetual-traff…
It seems there are enough of you outcasts to form your own good old boy's club. I kinda lump you all together like that anyway.
edit: In a positive way. That sorta sounded bad. I meant I group you and Healy and Settle and those who you guys associate with together as a positive group of role models. Or hooligans or something.
And what an awesome post it was.
HEY!!! There will be NO HOOKERS, dammit! Dan, don't encourage him.
Great post, btw… a man after my own heart. I love brutal honesty!
(Of course I do – look who I'm with! LOL!!)
Oops! You weren't supposed to see that, Lisa.
Great post. the sad thing is it's all true.
I wanted to join the IMGOBC.
In fact, I fully expected to be invited to all the big seminars after I wrote about "
how to go broke trying to get rich." I gave everyone a foolproof surefire step-by-step way to rake in fistfuls of cash, complete with a $5,000 seminar offer and a $25,000 a year mastermind group.
But no invites..Oh well….
http://dontstepinthepoop.com/how-to-go-broke-gett…
Found you through Aaron Wall's site.
Here's where I've ended up: It's nice to get an email and within 5 seconds know that I'm being shammed some Guru hypey BS pitch. It used to be when I read this stuff I would believe it and it would get me excited. After all, THEY had the answer for me! Thank God I finally grew up. These big 'launches' trun me off now and I can see right through it.
My point: I'm not the only one who's made it to the 'other side' and can now see clearly.
So get on with it. People are dying for some truth.
[...] You don't have to be an expert to create an info-product! [...]
great post…ive recently unsubscribed from a number of these email lists and no longer visit many of these blogs because all they do now is cross promote their exclusive clubs and money making formulas…the number of sites online where there is actual good content has been diminishing quick…
This is so true. The people want the "sizzle" and not the STEAK when what they really need is the steak without all the sizzle. So the question is how do you sell them what they need when it's not what they want? Well I think the only option may just be to lure them with all the sizzle and eventually provide them with the steak… (When they're ready)
Great post! Thanks a lot!
-Alan
I was an original member of the "Marketing Junkies" mastermind group. It was me, Yanik, Bill Harrison and Rob Olic.
We hosted dinners and invited the "gurus" to eat with us.
Everyone from "Spamford Wallace" (remember him) to Ken McCarthy flew (or drove) to eat with us for a few hours.
At first it was cool. I was pinching myself. But years later, I moved to the country and cut ties with these psychopathic marketers.
Actually, it was Bill Glazer that did it for me. This guy is somethin' else. He bragged about how he lied with his "coloring book brochure" from his 7-year old son… a complete fabrication.
Now while I agree with most of this article, you can hook up with an IMGOBC and not have to play the game…
… I have a shiny new online software product that actually works (imagine that). I approached Keith Baxter about it… had precisely-qualified visitors hitting his new blog in just minutes using my shiny software, and sealed the deal — he promoted my new tool without any reciprocation requested.
Here's the blog post about it: http://affiliateradio.com/943/new-twittter-market…
Dan is correct, the "gurus" have faked it 'til they made it. Just look at that Shoemoney AdSense Photoshopped "cheque"… Google sends its USA partners checks, not a "cheque" — oops.
Dan,
Hey brother. Glad to hear you are well. I loved your post. This is a topic we've talked about before and one Travis and I have discussed at length over the years.
Here's my two cents on the reality of selling honest DR products and coaching.
While I think it can be done, I think it requires a whole lot of manual labor. This is why the "gurus" don't sell it. They don't have the smarts, skill, guts or stamina to pull off what it takes to do that business. So they opt for the easier fishing where there is more money and faster money.
Selling DR coaching for real is a slow and steady business not a "get rich quick" biz. I believe it requires putting on real seminars in real towns and talking to a lot of people. That requires real DR marketing experience to fill those seminar seats and then real sales skills to sell from the platform and then real personality marketing skills to keep those clients in your fold and buying again.
I'm not talking about getting on one of their guru stages and selling BSO products. I'm talking about pre-positioning your real expertise through DR marketing into an area, hosting a seminar of your own, building trust and rapport and selling from the platform. Building a list over time and developing a herd.
Finding the good customers slowly… seminar by seminar picking up a customer-for-life here and there.
That's the way it could be done. The problem is, it's a lot of time, money and effort and the pay off is small at first until you build it big over time.
For guys like us who can make a lot of money doing what we do… I don't think it pays off to spend the time energy and effort doing that.
There are easier ways with less risk to make more money in less time and we know what they are.
Using our skills is far more profitable then trying to find a handful of good customers who want to spend the necessary time and do the necessary work to really learn the craft of DR.
I don't think it's possible to use the same online methods the gurus use to sell things that aren't BSO products. Finding the real buyers online is not as easy and profitable as getting the BSO buying. I tend to believe that the majority of the people you're looking for won't respond in large enough quantities online.
Talk soon,
Jimmy
Hey Jimmy,
Great to hear from you.
This confirms what I've assumed based on my observations.
And I know you're not just talking theory. You and Travis have done this… paid a BIG price to do whatever it takes, s-l-o-w-ly, one-by-one… using real marketing skills and principles and real products… to build a big herd of "real" customers… professionals and people who own real businesses, not the BSO-seeking wanna-bee crowd.
And it's been fun watching your growth, too… you best-selling book author, you!
From the minute I met you and Travis at Gary Halbert's Root Canal seminar, I knew you guys were going to do something big. Even though I can't take any credit for your success, I still feel like a proud uncle. (I'm not old enough to feel like I proud father…yet!)
Thanks for sharing your experience, Jimmy. I hope we can hang out some time soon.
One things I've always tried to do in my other businesess is sell them what they want and GIVE them what they need.
If they buy a supplement to help build muscle, I include a proper training routine and nutrition plan for gaining muscle. Even if they just did THAT, they would gain muscle. The supplement adds an additional boost.
See what I mean?
I, too, unsubscribed from almost everything a couple months back. Iy was so liberating… and my inbox became so much more manageable. I probably saved an additional 30 minutes a day not having to deal with all those e-mails.
Thank you, Kenneth. I'm glad you're here.
I'll do my best to keep giving you good value here.
You didn't get an invite, either? I'm sorry to hear that.
Maybe they didn't like your URL… but I LOVE it!
I appreciate your sense of humor and telling it like you see it.
I like your idea. I also like that word "hooligan". I think this could work.
Oh wow! I guess word is getting out about little old me.
I must have made a few waves with my post.
It's quite a powerful little syndicate, that IMGOBC. I don't plan on competing in their space. It would be akin to competing with the Mafia.
I plan on attracting serious people with real businesses who have a work ethic and understand building a successful business ain't easy. Folks who understand it takes a lot of mental toughness and real work. That's a crowd not served by the IMGOBC cartel.
It's truly incredible isn't it?
And I didn't share the WORST of it. Most people wouldn't believe it. They would think it sounds like the plot of some kind of Mafia movie.
I didn't delete any of your comments, Markus.
If it didn't immediately show up it was probably because it was in the approval queue.
Wow, not a single negative comment. Either you're god or you're completely full of crap.
Most probably I just don't have enough readership to piss that many people off.
Thanks Dan.
My URL might be affecting their judgement.
Maybe we just need to start our own club.
We can have seminars like
"The Small Seminar"
"The Random Things We Put Together to Sell Seminar"
"The Mocking Your Way to Riches Seminar"
Wow…we might e on to something.
Thanks for a good laugh. It couldn't have come at a better time. I really needed to laugh today… seriously.
I especially like "The Random Things We Put Together to Sell Seminar". I'm going to announce that next week. Wanna come?
Count me in! You're providing airfare, right?
But all I've got to sell is 7 hours of me talking about how dumb people are, I mean, my "How to Drastically Improve Your Intelligence in 30 Days or Less!" course on 7 CDs. It's a college education in a box!
Come over to my blog in the next day or so.
I'm putting together an even bigger list of possible seminars.
So far, "The Sales Pitch Seminar" featuring nothing but sales pitches (for improving your sales ability, of course).
Or you might like "How to Pretend to be an Expert Seminar" hosted by genuine fake experts! You've never heard of them because they've been "underground".
Hey Dan
The answer is YES
You could also write a book, you know, the old fashioned hard cover kind (sorry I am new here, maybe you already have one)
Wow. When I was ill a few years ago, I had a blog called Internet Marketing Tell All under an alias that talked about a lot of these same things.
As for your questions.
1- Yes. And it's the only way to have a near zero refund rate – true value. I think someone following the guru model of success is doomed to have a series of launches rather than a career. It's also easier to build loyalty when your products actually work.
2- I believe so. It's all in how you target your audience. Yours is carefully targeted by people who don't like BS. There's an article I refer to a lot called "Reality Branding – Are You Taking Advantage Of The 40 Year Social Pendulum?" – I think it's one of the most important topics on the web today. It talks about how the guy who wrote the article saw a presentation about the 40 year social pendulum and its implications in marketing.
Before, people wanted to be dazzled, mystified, lied to even, because they valued hype, dreams, over reality and what could actually be accomplished. Now that targeted buying demographic wants real, doable plans, and if it means success, they aren't afraid of a bit of hard work.
3- That majority became a minority between 2005- 2007. Partly due to the rise of the writeable web, where people could talk to each other and inform one another about purchases without the need for a webmaster or even a website. It's why internet marketing is 10 times more competitive now than it was in 2004. It's why so many people who create products geared at internet marketers are cannibalizing each other's products.
It's why the new big thing in internet marketing is marketing to offline business owners – they have the money, value leads more, have lower expectations, are easier to please than the oft-burned internet marketing newbie. (I'm actually glad about this trend, because there's an actual business model there, and if they don't help the client, they lose them. I just hope it's the newbies that catch on and make money rather than the folks who continuously cheat them out of their cash.)
4- yes.
5- Yes.
And when you come out with those products, I'll buy them, review them and tell my little audience what I think. They'd be perfect for your approach and are already used to being told the truth. They're a small group, but they're loyal to people who have integrity.
Great post Dan, it makes me feel better about passing on the bling!
I think this blog gives you great credibility. Many people will fall for the BSO garbage, but we all know better
. If you keep providing great info here, you will have the goods to sell.
Hi Peter,
I'm still working on a book. Slowly but surely.
Hey Tinu,
Thanks for sharing.
Very interesting stuff about the social pendulum.
All the best,
Dan
Thanks, Julie! I'm blushing!
Loved this post, I also think you could put an extra step in, and that is to " retire from internet marketing " They do make more comebacks than a heavyweight boxer though
You're right, Dave. I forgot about the good old "I'm retiring" trick.
WELL SAID Dan! Oh man, sometimes what really drives me nuts is the consistent drive for showing off. IE: facebook comments and photos. Eesh, like roaches crawling under the skin.
WELL SAID Dan! Oh man, sometimes what really drives me nuts is the consistent drive for showing off. IE: facebook comments and photos. Eesh, like roaches crawling under the skin.
Great post Dan…!
The Gurus of IM will remain because of the hype, the launches, the Frank Kern Syndicate, and the holy grail that teaches, or portends to teach, instant riches with a magic button.
I remember several years ago, I bought "The Magic Button" from Early To Rise. It was a sham product and to this day I have not watched all of the CD's.
I was not looking for Instant Riches, only more tools and information on how to succeed, so the high price tag did not bother me. I thought that since I was paying a months wages I would be getting a years worth of solid information. Not so.
As long as there are buyers for "Instant Riches" the marketing predators will abound.
[...] You don't have to be an expert to create an info-product! [...]
Our paths have somehow crossed again Dan. I’ll be contacting you in a couple of days – but I’m glad I ran into your site again and this article is so freaking SPOT ON, it’s crazy cool! =)
I’ve been online since 1996. I was one of the original IM “gurus” back in the day, with Corey Rudl and others. After a few years, I just got sick of the scams, the BS and hype … so I left the “club” and started my own nutritional supplement company (hence, why I’ll be contacting you soon =)
I think most people would be SHOCKED at exactly how these guys REALLY make their money… What they “say” they do and what they ACTUALLY do are very different and of course, very misleading to the newbies (just like the bodybuilding world
.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write an informative and TRUE article – it’s appreciated
Hi Sam,
You sound like a very interesting guy to talk to. I'll look forward to speaking with you soon.
Wow, now that you put it that way, it seems so obvious! Thanks for the heads up!
[...] specific posts wherever possible — there are people like Joel Comm, Ryan Healy, Ray Edwards, Dan Gallapoo, and many more. (Funny how many of them are copywriters, eh?) The numbers seem to be steadily [...]
Listen Bro!
May the Good Lord bless,keep and protect you and your family for your BRUTAL HONESTY.
"He who feels it knows it" . Bob Marley!
A lot of your readers who haven't been a victim of shinny object syndrome(as it relates to IM) will NEVER appreciate your honesty.
Even if you force feed them;they still won't get it.
I learn t the hard way. Now I work my a** off every day doing what I should have been doing about 2 years ago. Go figure!
NOW when I hear people like you, Ben, Perry, Dean speak, I listen attentively.
Whatever you lay your hands on, you shall prosper bro!
Yesterday, I READ your blog and it made me wonder what the heck I am still doing in this IM niche anyway. This blog of yours is sprinkled with Gold all over the place. NO, THIS IS NOT A HYPE!
Thanks.
One day, God willing, I will able to join your monthly newsletter. Take care and GOD BLESS
These email marketing secrets
work like crazy
Just use these fill-in-the-blank
email marketing templates
to sell more stuff right now...