DAN: <\/strong> Wow… those lessons would take an entire book to fill.\u00a0 Actually I’m kind of in the process of compiling or writing all the things down I learned from Gary.\u00a0 They’re all in my head, it’s a matter of just getting them out of there and on the paper.\u00a0 Gary taught me so many things.\u00a0 Not just about business and copywriting and direct response\u201a but about life in general.\u00a0 Some of them didn’t make sense at the time but now a lot of them are making sense.<\/p>\nGuess one of the most important things he taught me was he always said motion is better than meditation.\u00a0 You don’t have to get it perfect.\u00a0 You just have to get it going.\u00a0 And rather than sit on something and think about it for months and analyze it, just get it out there.\u00a0 As he used to say, “This is good enough at this point.\u00a0 It’s not perfect.\u00a0 It’s good enough.\u00a0 Let’s run it up the flag pole and see how many people salute this thing.”\u00a0 And then he’d run the ad in the newspaper or do a direct mail test or whatever\u201a an online test\u201a and we’d see what would happen.<\/p>\n
And one of the life-changing things for me was Gary and I wrote an ad for a book that we tested in a magazine.\u00a0 I basically wrote the thing and then Gary looked at it and took some of the things I’d written\u201a not all of them\u201a and then rewrote the whole ad and told me basically he was writing it in the style of the old Joe Karbo, Lazy Man’s Way To Riches ad.\u00a0 And I thought it was a great ad.\u00a0 And everybody else who read it thought it was a great ad.\u00a0 We ran that in several newspapers and it was a complete bomb.\u00a0 We got so few calls and Gary didn’t even react.\u00a0 There was no emotion, he just shrugged it off and his only response was, Okay, what else we workin’ on?<\/p>\n
We moved on to the next project and that for me was so liberating to see that, you know what?\u00a0 Gary Halbert\u201a as good a marketer and copywriting as he was\u201a\u00a0 still had his failures.\u00a0 And it was just a matter of getting it out there, testing it, seeing what happens\u201a if we got something to work with, let’s go forward.\u00a0 If not, then that’s dead and let’s move on to the next thing.\u00a0 There’s no emotion involved.\u00a0 There’s no hand-wringing, oooooh this is a failure and I worked on it for months and it failed…\u00a0 No.\u00a0 It’s just okay… next!<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> When you guys used to run your tests, did you test multiple different versions?\u00a0 Or was it just that one version then if that didn’t work you just moved on to the next thing?\u00a0 Or how did that work?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> For this particular thing it was that one version and that was it.\u00a0 And it was dead in the water.\u00a0 You know, Gary didn’t go into specifics.\u00a0 I guess he pretty much just knew this one was dead in the water.\u00a0 We could spend some more time on it and try to revive it.\u00a0 But we got other projects to test so let’s test them and see what happens.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> So basically, if it’s a complete disaster, it’s probably not going to get much better just by changing a headline or something?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Pretty much so.\u00a0 Gary told me to look at Agora Publishing.\u00a0 One of the biggest direct mailers in the country.\u00a0 Probably in the world.\u00a0 They hire the best copywriters in the world.\u00a0 They have the best marketing minds in the country working there.\u00a0 They have years and years and years of experience in all kinds of different markets.\u00a0 These guys know their stuff.\u00a0 And they have millions of dollars to test ideas.\u00a0 And he said their numbers show 8 out of every 10 projects they test fail and they never move forward with it.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Wow!\u00a0 I had no idea about that.<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> I didn’t either.\u00a0 And Gary’s point was if Agora Publishing\u201a with all the brilliant minds and the brilliant copywriters and all that experience\u201a only hits a home-run or 20% of the projects are winners\u201a don’t expect to have better odds than Agora.\u00a0 It’s probably going to be the same for us.\u00a0 You’re going to test stuff, it’s going to fail\u201a next!\u00a0 Move on to your next project.\u00a0 You had a failure, great.\u00a0 Join the club.\u00a0 Don’t let that stop you in your tracks.\u00a0 Move on to the next one.\u00a0 You just got to keep swinging at them until you get a hit.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Since then do you apply that philosophy to everything you work on\u201a if it bombs that first time you just don’t waste time on it and move on to the next thing until you get a winner?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> I pretty much do.\u00a0 If it shows some form of life… I try to figure out how can I make this better or why didn’t this produce the kind of response I need.\u00a0 But if it’s just a dog… I had to learn the hard way.\u00a0 I should have just followed Gary’s example.\u00a0 If it’s a dog… I tried to beat a dead horse so to speak.\u00a0 I’ve had several projects where I just believed they were going to work and I thought my copy was brilliant.\u00a0 And they were complete bombs.\u00a0 But yet I wasted time on trying to revive those and figure out what was wrong when I should have just thrown that thing in the trash and moved on to the next project like Gary taught me.<\/p>\nSo if it’s a dog and it’s just stinkin’ up the place with hardly any response and it’s just not working, it’s time to drop that thing and move on to the next one.\u00a0 But I do have things that I didn’t get that great a response on initially that I’ve stuck with and got advice from trusted marketers and have improved on them.\u00a0 But if it’s a dog I’m dropping it as fast as I can.<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> That is really good advice and definitely something I’ll be applying to my own business very soon here.\u00a0 Because like you said, it takes that pressure off.\u00a0 If 8 out of 10 of Agora are failing with all their millions of dollars to test and pay for the highest copywriters in the world\u201a the average business owner who maybe doesn’t have a lot of skills yet\u201a why screw around with the dead product like that?\u00a0 Maybe it’s just the product?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I agree.\u00a0 I’ll go you even one further.\u00a0 Let’s say that 1 out of 20\u201a because we’re not Agora, and I certainly don’t put my copywriting skills up against any of these really good guys\u201a so let’s say I’m a hack copywriter\u201a and I still have a lot to learn about copywriting and marketing\u201a so let’s say that my failure rate is 19 out of 20.\u00a0 But that one project that hits\u201a trust me\u201a even if all 19 in a row are failures, Ben\u201a that one project that hits will more than pay for all the time and money lost on those 19.<\/p>\nThe only problem is most people don’t push through until they get the hit.\u00a0 The disappointment they take it personal.\u00a0 They view the failure as a reflection on them.\u00a0 And they view failure instead of being a result\u201a okay, that failed, that’s a result… that doesn’t make it a bad result… just a result\u201a and then the hand-wringing and the \u201cOh woe is me\u201d starts… and then they quit.\u00a0 They don’t push on through.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Are you pretty much in that camp of thinking where the list is 50%, the offer is 30 and the copy is only like 20% anyway… and really it’s such a small percentage that it’s out of the copywriter’s hand anyway?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> You know what, in my experience that has proven true for me.\u00a0 I’ve had fantastic results with\u201a and I’ll be the first to admit\u201a with crappy copy.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> One of the other guys I interviewed for this book was telling me, if the copywriters out there trying to sell their services weren’t beating their chests and acting like they’re the reason why a lot of these products are selling, maybe everyone else wouldn’t have this complex like, \u201cman I must really suck if this ad’s not working…\u201d\u00a0 When there are so many factors outside the copy that come into play that it’s almost kind of ridiculous.<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Yeah… that’s true.\u00a0 And there’s factors affecting things that maybe you’re not even aware of.\u00a0 It could be a breaking news event that all the sudden has captured everyone’s attention and they’re not watching your ad or reading your direct mail or Lord knows.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> It could depend maybe on the day they test, right?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> It really could\u201a there’s a lot of factors out of your control.\u00a0 And I used to get discouraged a lot about that stuff.\u00a0 Especially when I read and believed a lot of things I read on the Internet from alleged \u201cgurus\u201d who\u201a every piece they write they get a 85% response and $10 million off of every mailing.\u00a0 I used to believe a lot of that stuff.\u00a0 And I used think, \u201cWow… I’m a real loser.\u00a0 I only got 1% response on my last direct mail piece.\u00a0 And geez… and it only brought in a a buck fifty for every dollar invested\u201a I must be a serious loser and hang this up I guess.\u201d<\/p>\nBut there’s so many factors like you said.\u00a0 A good example is I’ve gotten fantastic results from crappy copy.\u00a0 I just cranked out some copy real fast that was crappy… and I thought, \u201cHuh.\u00a0 This is half-assed copy.\u00a0 You know what\u201a let’s do like Gary taught me, run it up the flag pole and see how many people salute this thing.\u201d<\/p>\n
But it was to a good list I had a previous business relationship with, or current business relationship with, and the offer was a good offer so my crappy copy was really successful.<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> And you can always improve on it later once you know it’s worth spending time on.\u00a0 Is that the way you look at it?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Yeah, exactly.\u00a0 Or… if you want to take it further.\u00a0 I got a piece of crappy copy that’s been running the past year and a half that is just kicking ass!\u00a0 And it is crappy.\u00a0 And I’ve had several people who I really respect be real nice about it and say, \u201cUuuhmmm this is okay… you could improve this or that and this or that…\u201d And I think, yeah, they’re absolutely right.\u00a0 I could improve it.\u00a0 And I’ll get around to that.\u00a0 But in the meantime since it’s making me a boatload of money I think I’ll just keep my crappy copy out there.\u00a0 I will get around to it.\u00a0 I will do some split testing and I will try to improve it.\u00a0 But it’s working pretty darn good.<\/p>\nAnd like you said, there’s other factors.\u00a0 There’s the list, the market, the offer.\u00a0 Gary Bencivenga said it very eloquently\u201a and I can’t remember what he said\u201a but it’s basically, a gifted a product is much more powerful than a gifted pen or something like that.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Yeah… I believe he was quoting Rosser Reeves.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Ah… you know brilliant copy is not going to sell a turd.\u00a0 You can write a brilliant piece of copy to sell a turd and it just ain’t going to happen.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> I remember reading some of those Gary Halbert letters and what I liked about those newsletters even more than just the content is he would show you an ad he wrote and he would say, \u201cI don’t know why this didn’t work.\u201d\u00a0 The one I’m thinking about is for a car dealership.\u00a0 And I’m thinking, \u201cMan if I was a car dealer I’d buy this.\u201d\u00a0 But we just can’t control this stuff.\u00a0 And why worry about it?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong>I agree. Gary had an interesting way of teaching.\u00a0 He didn’t come out and say that stuff, \u201cDan, you have a dog.\u00a0 Drop it!\u201d\u00a0 He did his thing and let me observe and figure this stuff out on my own.\u00a0 But yeah, that’s one of the most important things I learned from him.\u00a0 You can’t control a lot of that stuff.\u00a0 So get it out there, see what happens, if it’s a dog drop it and move on to the next one.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> When I was reading your website I remember one of the things that you talked about that Gary taught you was to quit being 100% online and start going offline.\u00a0 What’s a good way for someone who is maybe 100% online to start cashing in on offline media?\u00a0 How could someone go about that?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I feel like I’m the lone voice in the wilderness crying out this truth that nobody believes until they actually try it.\u00a0 But if you’ve got an online business and you’re not keeping a database of your customers’ physical snail mail addresses and sending them direct mail at least every month… I’m going to have to channel the spirit of Gary Halbert.\u00a0 If you’re not doing that then you are a complete 100% shit weasel.<\/p>\nIf Gary were here and he met an online marketer who wasn’t sending direct mail I think he’d probably whack ’em upside the head and call them a shit weasel.\u00a0 Because that one thing alone… can literally double your business in 30 days or less.\u00a0 I love the response I get when I tell online marketers this.\u00a0 And I’ve given this advice away freely which I will no longer do.\u00a0 In fact, this is the last time I’m going to give this away free, Ben.\u00a0 Because this is million dollar advice.\u00a0 But when I give it away free people don’t seem to value it.<\/p>\n
I spoke with an owner of one of the biggest online marketers of supplements and asked about how often they’re snail mailing their list.\u00a0 And he said, \u201cWe don’t keep a database of snail mail addresses once we ship the order.\u201d\u00a0 And I thought you’ve got to be kidding.\u00a0 Here’s a company that\u201a based on the current sales\u201a could probably add an additional $5 million per month if they would\u201a and that’s on the low side based on my experience\u201a if they send direct mail snail mail to the list every month.\u00a0 But the response is, \u201cYeah, but we capture email addresses.\u00a0 And we send a weekly, daily, whatever email promotion.\u201d<\/p>\n
Well, for a lot of reasons the emails are not getting through to the recipients nowadays with spam filters and all the other problems.\u00a0 Or, people’s inboxes are so crammed full of stuff, they’re deleting stuff.\u00a0 You know this, Ben, stuff you’ve even subscribed to that you want to get you probably delete a lot because you don’t have time to read it.\u00a0 So an email nowadays has a very low perceived value.\u00a0 But an actual snail mail letter or promotion that somebody holds that they received in their mailbox and hold in their hot little hands still commands more attention than an email in my most humble\u201a but accurate\u201a opinion.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Yesterday some idiot cut the phone line somewhere along the road here.\u00a0 So, everyone who has Verizon service from Oregon through California for like 100 miles could not make long distance calls or access the Internet.\u00a0 And I was thinking, \u201cMan I gotta call Doberman Dan tomorrow, I hope this thing gets back on track.\u201d\u00a0 And it just made it completely painfully obvious that relying on the Internet or any kind of technology is just a real big mistake.\u00a0 The technology of direct mail doesn’t change.\u00a0 It’s paper, a stamp and you can do it whether the phone is working.\u00a0 You can do it whether the Internet’s working.\u00a0 And you are going to get it in their hands 100% of the time.\u00a0 I just wanted to add that in there.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> That’s a very good point.\u00a0 And like I said it commands more attention.\u00a0 The first thing you gotta do before you can make a sale is you gotta get your prospect’s attention.\u00a0 And if he’s deleting your emails obviously you don’t have his attention.\u00a0 He’s not reading your message.\u00a0 But a direct mail promotion still commands more attention than an email and I learned that the hard way.<\/p>\nI’d had a little online business in the fitness-body building marketing that I kept going online, I was really concentrating more on client work at that time.\u00a0 But I kept my little business going in that market.\u00a0 And I was sending out weekly emails and everything and it generated a few sales.\u00a0 It was really small but it was something.\u00a0 I just got to a bad place in my life and was broke, moved to a new place in Miami, and it was Christmas time\u201a the worst time in the year to try to sell something in that market.\u00a0 And I was completely broke and sent out an email promotion and it got a trickle of sales like always.\u00a0 I didn’t know what I was going to do.\u00a0 It was like the wolf was at the door like Gary used to say.\u00a0 And me and my wife at the time sat down and I wrote out a direct mail promotion for one of my products and me and my wife sat down at the kitchen table which was the only piece of furniture we had at the time.\u00a0 And hand wrote out a 1000 envelopes to my most recent customers.\u00a0 Stuck the stamps on them all by hand.\u00a0 This was like I said real close to Christmas.\u00a0 And I dropped that in the mail\u201a the last little bit of money I had went to pay for envelopes, printing and stamps.\u00a0 And I dropped that in the mail with the hope that it would do something.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong>A Christmas miracle.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I was hoping for the Christmas miracle.\u00a0 And it’s a horrible time selling anything with direct mail in that market but I had to do something.\u00a0 And prior to that with this little business I had never sent any direct mail to them.\u00a0 I just followed the typical online thing that people do and just send email promotions weekly or monthly.\u00a0 And the orders just flooded in.\u00a0 And I thought, \u201cI’ll be darned!\u201d\u00a0 If I got this kind of response from direct mail\u201a because these people knew me, bought from me before and had a good experience with me and I got a great response and little cash flow surge there\u201a and I’ll be darned, I think maybe I should do the same thing next month.\u00a0 Did it next month and it was even better because January is a great month for direct mail.\u00a0 And I just sat down and got to figuring it out because I had that little business going at that point online for like five years.\u00a0 And I get to calculating and worst case scenario and thought \u201a \u201cWow!\u00a0 If I was sending out direct mail pitches all these years I would have made at least another $100,000 per year.\u201d<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> Oh wow!\u00a0 Email is actually costing people money even though it doesn’t cost anything to send it.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Exactly.\u00a0 Gary always used to say email is cheap\u201a or email is free\u201a for people who place no value on their time.\u00a0 His contention was emails are getting deleted, people aren’t reading them, they aren’t getting through.\u00a0 If you spent the same time preparing a direct mail promotion and sending it out you’d probably get 5 to 10 times the response that you get on email.\u00a0 And he was right.\u00a0 That was the first thing he told me when he came to Costa Rica\u201a I was living in Costa Rica at the time.\u00a0 That was the first time he and I met in person.\u00a0 And he asked what I was doing and I said I got this little business online.\u00a0 And he asks how well how’s it going.\u00a0 And I said it’s doing okay\u201a you know it’s doing this per month and this is what I’m doing I’m sending out emails and blah blah blah.\u00a0 And he’s like if you take that offline you can add at least one zero to the end of what you’re doing right now in the next two months.\u00a0 And I thought, man, this guy’s full of crap, man.\u00a0 This can’t work.\u00a0 Snail mail is old fashioned.\u00a0 Email is the wave of the future.\u00a0 This can’t be true.\u00a0 I basically ignored his advice for a long time.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Until that Christmas when you decided then to implement it?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yeah, that was about two years after Gary told me to do it.\u00a0 I’m just stubborn or thick headed sometimes.\u00a0 And two years later when my back was against the wall I did what he told me to do two years earlier.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> If that doesn’t get the point across I don’t know what does.\u00a0 Let’s say somebody is on a shoe-string budget, how would you suggest they go about doing their first direct mail project?\u00a0 Should they just start small and work their way up, or how does that work?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I would do just like I did.\u00a0 Whatever you can afford to do, take a segment of your customer list, and take your thousand most recent customers\u201a or if you’re really on a limited budget do whatever you can afford.\u00a0 A first class stamp nowadays is 41 cents.\u00a0 So if you can only afford forty some bucks in postage, then take your 100 most recent customers or whatever you can afford and get your promotion together and printed.\u00a0 You can usually get those printed inexpensively.\u00a0 Keep it simple\u201a white paper, black print.\u00a0 Make it look like a letter just like Gary always taught.\u00a0 Get those printed and sit down at your kitchen table and hand write your envelopes out.\u00a0 Hand write your return address in the corner card with no company name.\u00a0 No personal name.\u00a0 Just your address.\u00a0 And then hand write your customer’s address on there.\u00a0 It’s a bootstrap way of doing it.<\/p>\nAnd second of all, Gary always said that you’ll get a higher response when you make your letter look like a personal letter.\u00a0 So if you hand write out the envelope it’s going to look like a personal letter with everything printed right on the envelope.\u00a0 If instead of a live stamp it’s got a postmark or whatever they call it\u201a a printed indicia\u201a it’s obviously not a personal letter.\u00a0 So even though you’re on a budget and writing these out by hand, it’s actually an advantage to you and it’s going to help your response.\u00a0 Stick the stamps on by hand or pay some neighborhood kid a few cents each one to address and stick the stamps on and stuff the envelope and drop it in the mail.<\/p>\n
I think that’s the cheapest way to get started because you can do it based on your budget.\u00a0 If you can only afford to mail 100 letters this week then mail 100.\u00a0 Wait until the response comes in, take that money you’ve made, roll that into some more letters.\u00a0 If you make enough to mail 200 then mail 200 next week.<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> So if you’re really in trouble you can start with 20 or 30 and just do that or is there a minimum number they should try?\u00a0 Or how does that work?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Whatever you can afford.\u00a0 Obviously you’re not going to get real accurate statistical results if you’re only sending 20, 30, 40, 50, 100.\u00a0 Say you need to mail 1000, or 2000 to kind of gage what the response will be if you roll to the rest of your list.\u00a0 That may or may not be true, it depends on every circumstance.\u00a0 But the nice thing is you can mail out whatever you can afford.\u00a0 You can do your direct mail for $100 or less.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> Now let’s say someone doesn’t have a list of customers necessarily.\u00a0 Maybe they just have an e-newsletter.\u00a0 Should they not do direct mail because they’re not proven buyers?\u00a0 How would you handle something like that?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Here’s something I did a few years back with that same business.\u00a0 I had a decent ezine subscriber list, but I only had snail mail addresses of people who purchased.\u00a0 So I wanted to get more snail mail addresses.\u00a0 So what I did is I wrote a special report and sent an email to the list.\u00a0 I didn’t offer the report free.\u00a0 I know I would have gotten more response if I would have offered the report free.\u00a0 And then I could have tested to see how good those leads were.\u00a0 I kind of wanted to weed out the mooches who only ask for free stuff because it’s free and I asked something stupid\u201a like a buck ninety-five or two fifty or two ninety-five to cover postage.\u00a0 And by asking for a little bit of money I weeded out a lot of the mooches and the people who responded had credit cards because that was the only way to pay the two bucks or two ninety-five… or whatever it was.<\/p>\nSo I knew I got a snail mail name of someone who is one of my ezine subscribers who had a credit card.\u00a0 And that got me more snail mail addresses and the list turned out to be good.\u00a0 They were a pretty good list of buyers, too.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> So really somebody could whip up something with some value or maybe do what you and I are doing and just have a conversation with an expert, and offer to give it away free but maybe just charge for shipping and they’re going to get people who actually have an interest in the subject and are willing to spend a little money on it.\u00a0 And it’s almost like getting a paying customer?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> To me a snail mail address of even just a prospect\u201a some who hasn’t bought but somebody I know has interest in my niche or my subject matter\u201a is infinitely more valuable than an email address.<\/p>\nAnd so, based on your numbers let’s say you sell a higher priced product.\u00a0 You could offer your report free.\u00a0 So you’ve got some out of pocket expenses sending them the report, you know the printing and the postage.\u00a0 But it may make sense for your particular market or product.\u00a0 Because let’s say you’re selling a hundred dollar product and you give away your report free, you’re going to get a higher percentage of mooches who just ask for something free that really aren’t quality prospects to get some good quality prospects in there, too.\u00a0 I just ask for the two bucks shipping in there just to weed out the mooches, because mine was a low priced product.\u00a0 But if I had a higher priced product I would have tested offering it completely free and then see how it does from there.<\/p>\n
You know, whatever you’re offering\u201a whether it’s a report or a DVD or CD\u201a the content has to be good.\u00a0 You can’t put together something that’s crappy because you figure, \u201cAh… it’s free so I’ll just give them some crap.\u201d\u00a0 The content really has to be good because you’re just going to blow your credibility out if they send for your report and it’s all crap.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Yeah because then they’re not going to want to respond to a sales letter I would imagine.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Exactly\u201a if you’re content’s good they’ll be like, \u201cWow\u201a if this is his free stuff, imagine what his paid stuff is like.\u201d<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Yeah, and that can go either way.\u00a0 If it’s a quality thing it’ll make it more likely I would think, and if it’s a crappy thing it’ll make them more likely to not want to buy it.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yes, exactly.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> Let me ask you this\u201a now that we’re talking about direct mail.\u00a0 The swampy part of the direct mail world, from what I understand at least, is the list broker side of it.\u00a0 Do you have any tips on finding a good list broker and how would you go about finding one?\u00a0 I mean you probably already have one.\u00a0 But what about someone who has never done this before\u201a how can they find a list broker?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> You just have to ask people who have experience with that.\u00a0 I think I found the first one in the yellow pages or something like that.\u00a0 Or maybe it was an online search.\u00a0 It was years before I found a good list broker.<\/p>\nAnd it depends on your niche, too.\u00a0 Like my list broker specializes in certain things.\u00a0 Like she deals with health promotions and I forget what other niches because they’re niches I’m not in, but she specialized in that.\u00a0 But if you’re in a certain niche then there may be a better list broker for your particular niche.\u00a0 So if at all possible try to find an experienced direct marketer who is using the list broker and doing direct mail and ask who they use.<\/p>\n
You’ll go through a lot of them on your own if you’re just trying them here and there\u201a at least I did.\u00a0 You know this is a small industry and word gets out and a good list broker is really helpful.\u00a0 They know who’s mailing what to what lists, they know what promotions are working in certain lists.\u00a0 That’s some extremely valuable information.\u00a0 They’ll tell you who’s used this list, who’s gone back and used it a second or third time\u201a really good stuff.<\/p>\n
If you find a list you like and want to look into it more they’ll find you the promotion that generated the list.\u00a0 Yeah, a good list broker is hard to find.\u00a0 But when you find a good one they’re worth their weight in gold.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Just getting the ad that built the list\u201a man, you can’t ask for better research than that.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Nope, that’s for sure.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Will they show that to you before you rent the list?\u00a0 Or do you have to rent the list first and then they’ll show it to you?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> No\u201a while you’re doing your research on the list.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> So basically if I was going to the SRDS and I wanted to see the letter that created a certain list of maybe a million names in a certain niche, I could actually call a list broker up and they’ll be able to show me that sales letter?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yeah, a good list broker who’s doing their job and wants to spend the time will do it.\u00a0 One who’s lazy and doesn’t want to do anything will blow you off.\u00a0 But yeah, they’ll do that.\u00a0 The only caveat I have or I should say is when you find a good list broker don’t waste their time.\u00a0 If you’re going to rent the list and you’re serious about renting the list then that’s cool\u201a do all the research.\u00a0 But don’t just waste their time and have them go through all these hoops just so you can get free information from them.\u00a0 That’s really unethical.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> I remember a few months ago when we first spoke, you told me this interesting story about another circumstance when your back was against the wall, and you had to basically persuade the magazine person to run your ad at a substantial discount.\u00a0 Not a lot of people can do that sort of thing.\u00a0 What are some ways people can get good deals on magazines and newspaper space ads?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Now that we’re into this interview I’m noticing a recurring theme about my life\u201a I keep thinking of stories when my back was against the wall… for some reason that seems to be when I’m at my most creative.<\/p>\nI remember this time specifically.\u00a0 And I didn’t know anything about negotiating… or ads… all I knew is I had something that was working because I tested it on a small basis and I needed to get it in these magazines because I thought it was going to work.\u00a0 And they sent me what they call a rate card and it was like I had the ad all prepared\u201a it was a full page ad\u201a I don’t remember what the rate card was at the time.\u00a0 It doesn’t matter because whatever it was it was more than I could afford.\u00a0 It was something like $5,000.\u00a0 All I knew was that I could only afford to pay about six to seven hundred\u201a maybe eight hundred\u201a and so I didn’t know anything about negotiation.\u00a0 All I did was the “poor poor pitiful me” thing.\u00a0 I am a small time guy trying to put a roof over my head… I don’t have hardly any money.\u00a0 And I’m not even sure this is going to work.\u00a0 This could be a total failure and what little money I got saved could just be gone in an instant.\u00a0 I’ve got whatever it was\u201a $700 for this ad.\u00a0 Is there any possible way we could do a just one time test of my ad for $700?\u00a0 And I actually got a magazine to agree to that thank God.\u00a0 Primarily because the ad rep was just a gem of a person.\u00a0 His name if I can mention it…?<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Yeah, go ahead.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Bob Rose.\u00a0 And he works for Chelo Publishing.\u00a0 And he’s the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet.\u00a0 One of those few guys where his word is his bond and you shake hands on it and it’s good.\u00a0 Bob’s a great guy.\u00a0 And Bob let me run that ad for $700 and it was supposed to be a $5,000 ad.<\/p>\nI got better at ad negotiation though as I learned more.\u00a0 One other trick I used simply because I didn’t how to negotiate and I actually felt uncomfortable on the phone asking for a discount\u201a I’d call and ask for a magazine’s media kit.\u00a0 I’d look at the rate card\u201a whatever it was it didn’t matter because I couldn’t afford it\u201a I would have my ad ready to their specs that are laid out in the media kit.\u00a0 I’d write out a check for whatever I could afford.\u00a0 I’d send the check with the ad artwork\u201a this is back when you actually physically had to send the artwork.\u00a0 Now you can usually FTP it or email it.\u00a0 And I’d send a letter explaining here’s my full page ad.\u00a0 Here’s a check enclosed for X amount of dollars.\u00a0 Which is the maximum amount I can afford to pay for this ad.\u00a0 Feel free to cash my check and run my ad for this.\u00a0 Or if you ever happen to get any remnant space\u201a which is unsold ad space\u201a feel free to cash my check and run my ad.\u00a0 That worked 100% of the time and I didn’t do it many many many times.\u00a0 But the times I did it worked.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Is that the whole mindset of \u201cit’s really hard for them to give the money back once you send it to them?\u201d<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I think that’s what it is.\u00a0 I mean you got a check\u201a you got an order with a check. So it’s like, \u201cOkay, something’s better than nothing.\u201d\u00a0 And it worked well.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Man, usually you hear about remnant space and okay, here’s a company that’ll help you do it.\u00a0 But I never thought of actually just doing it that way.<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> And you can’t get ridiculous with it.\u00a0 I’ve gotten ad space as low as 10-15 percent of the rate card.\u00a0 If they’re asking $10,000 for a full page ad you can’t send them a $100 check with a note to run your ad.\u00a0 If their asking $10,000 for a full page ad it’s possible if you send them a $1,000 check using the technique I just described it is very possible you will get that ad in there.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> It may not be on your time frame right?\u00a0 But it could get in there within a few weeks or months or how does that work?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> That’s right.\u00a0 It very well could.\u00a0 If you’ve got more money to spend it’s actually highly likely if you send a check for 20 or 30 percent of the rate card it’s highly likely you’ll get in there pretty darn quick.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> You said it worked 100% of the time, but did you know when they were going to do it?\u00a0 Or did you just happen to see it was run and your check was cashed, or how did that work?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> I think a few times I was contacted.\u00a0 And they said your ad will be running.\u00a0 One time I wasn’t even contacted.\u00a0 They just cashed my check, put my ad in the publication and the way I knew it was in there is all the sudden I started getting calls.\u00a0 And, \u201cwhat the heck?\u201d\u00a0 and when I got the publication I found I was in there.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> That is a great little tip.\u00a0 I mean anyone who is reading this or listening to this there’s no excuse not to do this now offline\u201a at least test it if you can scrape some money together like that.<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> It’s worked well and desperation was the mother of invention at that point.\u00a0 I had no negotiation skills and felt extremely uncomfortable doing it so that’s how I handled it.\u00a0 And it worked.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> Talk about a million dollar tip.\u00a0 If anyone wanted to start cashing in on offline leads and things like that\u201a I mean there you go.\u00a0 More on these offline sales letters and ads, another thing I wanted to ask you was what your process was for when you test them.\u00a0 Because it’s fairly simple now to test things online.\u00a0 It’s really cheap and easy.\u00a0 But if somebody was going to go offline how would you suggest they start testing their ads and sales letters?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Things have changed a lot since I first started in direct response marketing back in the mid to late nineties I guess.\u00a0 Back then for example, my first project how I tested it was a two step ad actually.<\/p>\nI was selling a self published body building course and I just took out a very small display ad\u201a the smallest size I could.\u00a0 And had a headline whatever it was “Gain 15 pounds of muscle blah blah blah \u201a\u00a0 new free report reveals the secrets to gaining muscle mass and strength yada yada yada.\u00a0 Call this toll free 24 hour telephone number and request your free report.”<\/p>\n
And that was set up with a voicemail number.\u00a0 They called the voicemail number, left their name and address for the free report and I sent a free report that was a sales pitch of course.\u00a0 And so, you had to wait for the ad to come out, which can be anywhere from two to three months.\u00a0 Then the leads came in, and you had to mail out that first sales letter and judge the response from there.\u00a0 So you got several months involved in doing it that way.\u00a0 But it was the cheapest way for me to get a prospect list going and see if my offer was going to fly because the ad was inexpensive, the voicemail was $20 a month.\u00a0 I did all the grunt work myself, I transcribed the names from the voicemail, hand addressed the envelopes, mailed them their report.<\/p>\n
So it was a real bootstrap way of doing it.\u00a0 But it was cheaper than me putting my whole sales pitch in a full page ad.\u00a0 Plus if I did it this way\u201a two-step\u201a I captured the names and addresses so they didn’t just get one sales letter from me.\u00a0 Weeks later they got a follow up sales letter.\u00a0 So it was months to really test something the bootstrap way like that.\u00a0 That was how I did it.\u00a0 It is way faster to test stuff online nowadays.<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> When you send somebody a free report which is really a sales pitch, is yours a flat out sales letter or do you actually give away really good information the first half, then kind of segue into it… or how do you do that?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Initially when I was just first learning it was just a sales pitch.\u00a0 It was actually a darn good story.\u00a0 The story was fairly intriguing.\u00a0 But it was like some of the promotions Gary Halbert wrote.\u00a0 The story just sucked you in.\u00a0\u00a0 But there wasn’t really much or any content in there because I just didn’t know.\u00a0 It worked.\u00a0 But nowadays if I were doing it, I would definitely put some really good content in there, too\u201a that they’d read it and be like, \u201cWow!\u00a0 I can use this right now in my business\u201a this is good advice…\u201d rather than just a flat out sales pitch.<\/p>\nBut then again, I’m gonna also say that you have to test it, too.\u00a0 You may get better results with a flat out sales pitch.\u00a0 You may get better results putting some really good content in there.\u00a0 But my first few projects done the two-step way like I just described was a flat out sales pitch.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Have you ever used newspapers or magazines or even direct mail to drive people online?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yes I have.\u00a0 I have not done it recently.\u00a0 But back when I first got on the web, which would have been ’97, I was running full page ads that were a one-step that sold a product right from the ad.\u00a0 And the only ordering option was call a toll free option to order.\u00a0 But then after I got my website up I also put the website address in there as a response device in my particular instance my response stayed about the same.\u00a0 It didn’t cause my sales to go down.\u00a0 But instead of 100% coming in on the phone, now 70% came in on the phone and 30% came in online.\u00a0 I’m going from memory here not exact numbers, just an example.<\/p>\nSo yes I have done it but that was a one-step thing.\u00a0 I’ve also tested small display ads.\u00a0 Same deal as before like I described\u201a people could call and get their free report, but instead of using the phone option I drove them to a website to enter their email to get the free report.\u00a0 And that worked well, too.\u00a0 And it was inexpensive.\u00a0 A small display ad in certain publications was an inexpensive way to do that.<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> To me it seems marrying the two mediums that works better than either one by themselves makes more sense than going all online and not using all the tools at our disposal.\u00a0 But a lot of people just stay online and don’t even think about doing these things.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yeah it makes sense to me and it’s worked extremely well for me and several other people who I’ve advised to do it.\u00a0 Sometimes I just think that it’s incredibly stupid to have your entire business come from one single company.\u00a0 And I’m talking about Google.\u00a0 If You’re completely dependent on Google for your business you’re like in my opinion one step away from being out of business.\u00a0 If they change their search engine parameters and all the sudden you drop from the top ten to number 400\u201a you’re out of business.\u00a0 Or if your Google AdWords are the only thing bringing in leads and sales and all the sudden Google changes some small policy… or changes the rule about that and all the sudden your ads are deleted… or all the sudden you go from appearing in the top five to being 50 or below\u201a you’re out of business.\u00a0 So it just makes sense to me to spread it around and use different ways to get business coming in.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> I think Google\u201a didn’t they do that thing the \u201cGoogle Slap\u201d they called it last year and people literally went out of business overnight.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yeah overnight.\u00a0 And that’s scares the crap out of me.\u00a0 I use Google AdWords a lot to test stuff\u201a and not just to test but to bring in business and leads, too.\u00a0 But if that were my only method of bringing in business I’d be scared to death\u201a I wouldn’t sleep until I got other stuff going.\u00a0 And all this stuff I’m telling you to do offline\u201a that’s what I’d be doing if I had something going on Google AdWords that was working, I wouldn’t sleep until I got other stuff going because I know that in a nano-second Google can change their mind about something and you’d be out of business.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> Yeah or the Internet could have a fart or something\u201a who knows…<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Exactly!<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Reminds me of that thing Dan Kennedy likes to say\u201a that 1 is the most dangerous number in business.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> That’s true.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Relying on one this or one product, one client, one media like a lot of people used to just use FAX and they couldn’t do that, or telemarketing and they couldn’t do that.\u00a0 What you’re saying here makes so much more sense to mix and match all these different medias.\u00a0 Especially offline which doesn’t really change.\u00a0 When’s the last time the technology of offline media changed?\u00a0 It is what it is.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Exactly.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> You know who has a very, very good\u201a he wrote an article about this\u201a a guy named Bob Serling.\u00a0 He wrote something on his website\u201a and I’m pretty sure this is free for anyone to read on his website\u201a I think it’s bobserling.com.\u00a0 Or just put his name in the search engine and you’ll find him.\u00a0 And he talked about the absolute games these search engines play and how they have to keep screwing with your rankings\u201a that’s just part of the game.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Is that on his website?<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> I believe so\u201a and the click fraud and all that.\u00a0 It’s not like it’s bad to use those things\u201a but to rely on them, like you said, how could you sleep at night just knowing one engineer could have an idea that might make sense for Google or Yahoo but kill your business in a nanosecond.<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> I have a friend who’s got an online information marketing business who checks his Google ranking like five times a day\u201a nervously checks it five times a day\u201a because he’s been put out of business several times.\u00a0 Google changed their mind about some little thing and he went from being in the top five under certain key words that were bringing in all his business to going to number 200 and all the sudden he’s out of business.\u00a0 He’s gotta scramble and figure out what he needs to do to get back up.<\/p>\nWow… I don’t want to live that way.\u00a0 I want the multiple leg thing like Jay Abraham used to talk about.\u00a0 You have a table with one leg\u201a that’s pretty shaky.\u00a0 Two legs you’re doing better.\u00a0 You know I want about a 50 leg table… so if this leg falls off I’m not even going to miss a beat and probably notice it much and it’s just going to keep going.\u00a0 That’s what I want and all that stuff that Gary Halbert used to teach in his newsletter is still applicable today and this stuff I’m telling you about is still applicable to online businesses, there’s all kinds of bootstrap, inexpensive off-line ways to get leads and new business.<\/p>\n
BEN:<\/strong> The guy I interviewed last week for this book\u201a his name is Michael Winicki\u201a he was talking about how easy it is to just include a sales letter or catalog with your order when you ship it out…<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Exactly!\u00a0 It’s amazing and nobody does it.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> That’s exactly what he was telling me.\u00a0 He’s like almost embarrassed for our industry.\u00a0 I think people are looking for the sexy thing and not for the thing that works\u201a the simple, basic thing.\u00a0 I don’t know\u201a you just see all the money being left on the table and it just kind of bothers you.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> It does… it’s crazy that\u201a I mean some of the biggest online marketers out there don’t include a bounce-back offer\u201a that’s what they call it when you put a sales pitch in with your outgoing order.\u00a0 How many hundreds of thousands of dollars are they missing by not doing it.\u00a0 It doesn’t cost anything\u201a you’re already shipping the product!<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Yeah… it’s just hitching a ride.\u00a0 It reminds me of what you were talking about earlier when you guys were modeling the Joe Karbo ad.\u00a0 And from what I understand Joe Karbo somehow got away with not collecting the names or anything.\u00a0 But everyone else since could never figure out how he did it.\u00a0 It’s like why even bother trying to follow that\u201a his model I mean\u201a why not just do these little things and include the bounce-back offer, put an up-sell on the order form and just all these little dumb simple things\u201a and it just amazes me how much a difference they can make.<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Yeah exactly.\u00a0 According to what Gary told me, Joe Karbo just didn’t know.\u00a0 Massive success with that \u201cLazy Man’s Way To Riches\u201d ad and he just didn’t know.\u00a0 He was making so much money\u201a he shipped out his book and threw away the names and it just didn’t occur to him, hey I can keep these and sell more stuff to these guys.\u00a0 Or, at the very least, rent his list to other people and make some money with it.\u00a0 Apparently from what Gary says, Joe admitted after the fact that was a huge mistake that cost him millions of dollars.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong>I was recently reading some Dan Kennedy thing about that.\u00a0 He was talking about how when he was just starting out\u201a he was like I’m going to model that whole thing\u201a put the ten dollar book in the full page ad and see what happens.\u00a0 He was like it just wasn’t working.\u00a0 He was losing money left and right.\u00a0 But then he noticed it was working for some people.\u00a0 But then when he did the numbers he found out, wait a minute\u201a they’re not making a profit either.\u00a0 How are they staying in business?\u00a0 And the way they were staying in business is they were renting the names.\u00a0 So they could take a loss and unless you have that strategy in place…<\/p>\nBut like you said, there’s another leg of the table.\u00a0 Renting the list.\u00a0 It’s just good to know these things.<\/p>\n
DAN: <\/strong> It is.\u00a0 In my opinion, based on my experience, a snail mail physical address\u201a customer list\u201a is something that has immense value that can feed you for years and probably decades.\u00a0 As long as you do it right and treat it right and do the things you need to do to keep the list active.\u00a0 That’s been my case, that’s for sure.\u00a0 Way… waaaaay more value than just an email list.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> These emails they just\u201a people drop their email address on a dime.\u00a0 And it’s not like you can just move on a dime.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong>That’s right.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> With the email it’s gotten to the point where\u201a and I know a lot of people, myself included\u201a I don’t even let people with like hotmail or msn join because all they do is push the stupid spam button and then it gets you in trouble because now you can’t market to anyone else because now you’re on a list and… AOL does that too.\u00a0 Email is just so shaky, it’s so unreliable now.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> You know what that’s something I didn’t know.\u00a0 I think I’m going to implement that\u201a not allowing hotmail addresses.\u00a0 You get a lot of complaints from them.\u00a0 Good idea\u201a thanks Ben.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> I kind of want to segue into some copywriting questions here if that’s alright because I’ve looked at your ads at your portfolio at your site and they’re just great ads.\u00a0 One of the questions I wanted to ask you\u201a and I think you address this on your site\u201a is how do you avoid things like writer’s block?\u00a0 Because you talked about how you sat down at the kitchen table with your wife and you just cranked out an ad when your back was against the wall.\u00a0 How do you avoid that dreaded blank page and where do I start and that sort of thing?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I have had that problem sometimes of feeling just overwhelmed and so overwhelmed I just couldn’t get started.\u00a0 And when it’s my own projects that’s not a real big deal because I don’t have a client breathing down my neck.\u00a0 But when it’s a client and you got a deadline that’s extremely stressful for me.<\/p>\nFirst of all, I’m a pretty voracious reader of stuff about direct marketing and copywriting.\u00a0 And I love to read promotions written by the masters.\u00a0 Like you’ve been sending me the Jim Rutz stuff you found and Clayton Makepeace, John Carlton and all the other the masters\u201a I don’t mean to be leaving anyone out.\u00a0 I like reading those to learn from them and that seems to just stuff ideas into my brain that seem to come out at later points in time.\u00a0 So that’s been a real help to me, just always reading stuff about direct response and reading good direct response promotions.<\/p>\n
Plus, what’s really worked is quit editing yourself as you write.\u00a0 And just write.\u00a0 Just because you’re writing doesn’t mean you have to use it.\u00a0 Just because you’re writing something doesn’t mean it’s going to go into your promotion.\u00a0 Just write even if it makes no sense whatsoever.\u00a0 Just write and get stuff flowing.<\/p>\n
Gary had a technique which I’ve used\u201a it’s worked for me.\u00a0 He guarantees it works every time and you’ll never ever have writer’s block.\u00a0 He said you just write.\u00a0 It’s as simple as it gets.\u00a0 If you don’t know what to write, quit sitting there looking at the blank screen or the blank piece of paper and just start writing \u201cblah blah blah.\u201d\u00a0 And literally B-L-A-H-B-L-A-H.\u00a0 And keep writing \u201cblah blah blah\u201d until a thought pops into your head.<\/p>\n
\u201c7 Mistakes Business Owners Make That Are Killing Your Profits\u201d you go blank again.\u00a0 Keep writing, \u201cblah blah blah blah blah.\u201d\u00a0 Or whatever you want to\u201a keep writing \u201cmy dog has fleas my dog has fleas my dog has fleas\u201d and you get the next idea that pops into your head.\u00a0 \u201cAre you making this mistake?\u00a0 You’re probably losing 50% of your potential sales if you’re doing this.\u201d\u00a0 You blank out.\u00a0 So go back to writing \u201cblah blah blah blah blah.\u201d\u00a0 That’s what’s worked really well.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Is that that whole, \u201cyou just have to keep moving\u201d basically?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> I think so.\u00a0 And quit critiquing yourself and editing yourself as you write.\u00a0 You’re writing something and thinking, \u201c7 Reasons Business Owners Are Losing Money This Year\u201a oh wait a minute, that sucks… 7 Mistakes Entrepreneurs…\u201d you can’t even finish the first sentence because you’re editing yourself as you go\u201a just write.\u00a0 It doesn’t matter if it’s just pure crap or drivel.\u00a0 Just write and later you’ll pull the gems out of there.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> Kind of like what you were saying at the beginning of this interview\u201a you don’t have to get it perfect, just get it down.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong>That’s right.\u00a0 Just get it going.\u00a0 Motion beats meditation, that’s for sure.\u00a0 And the more you sit there fretting about it with the blank screen the worse it gets.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Yeah, definitely.\u00a0 I’m sure that most copywriters have had that problem.\u00a0 It just gets worse and worse.\u00a0 That’s great advice.\u00a0 When you look at other copywriters what they’re doing today\u201a or I don’t know if people ever send you ads just to say, \u201cHey Dan, can you look this over and tell me what you think?\u201d What’s the biggest mistake that you’re seeing that people are making in their copy?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Well a couple things.\u00a0 Not enough proof elements.\u00a0 If you make a statement and you can’t back it up you’re just bragging.\u00a0 \u201cMy course is going to increase your income by 50% in 60 days or less.\u201d\u00a0 Oh really?\u00a0 Back that up.\u00a0 Tell me how, give me testimonials of people who have done it or whatever.\u00a0 You really can’t have enough proof elements I don’t think.<\/p>\nHere’s a mistake I’ve seen recently.\u00a0 Just promotions that are just really hypey.\u00a0 With all these hypey words and exclamation point after exclamation point.\u00a0 \u201cAmazing\u201d this… \u201cMind-Boggling\u201d that…<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Mind-boggling…<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Read something written by the masters.\u00a0 It’s funny it’s like the inexperienced guys\u201a the copy is drawing attention to itself.\u00a0 \u201cLook at me!\u00a0 This is amazing!\u201d\u00a0 You know, a really good piece of copy written by a master it’s almost like it\u201a at least if I could describe it this way\u201a it’s almost like I’m reading and I’m not really recognizing the copy or the words.\u00a0 I’m drawn in by the copy\u201a the copy isn’t drawing attention to itself.\u00a0 Trying to think of a better way to explain this.\u00a0 Read anything written by Gary Halbert and it just flows.\u00a0 And it just sucks you in.\u00a0 And the copy doesn’t draw attention to itself and I don’t know if I’m doing a good job of describing it but I think you know what I mean.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> I think you’re doing a great job of describing it.\u00a0 You’re saying that if you notice the writing then you probably should go back and redo it.\u00a0 Even if you did want people to notice the writing it’s only 20% of the sale anyway.<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yeah\u201a exactly.<\/p>\nBEN:<\/strong> It’s all these other things\u201a it’s the inherent value of what you’re saying.\u00a0 Is that…?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Yeah\u201a exactly.\u00a0 That’s what I was really trying to get at.\u00a0 That’s the mistake I see made a lot.\u00a0 You can’t hype people into buying your product.\u00a0 There’s got to be some good salesmanship.\u00a0 If people see a bunch of hypey words and \u201camazing\u201d has got to be one of the over-used words and ends with exclamation points all over the place.\u00a0 It’s kind of like \u201cuuuggh… yuck!\u201d<\/p>\nOf course I’ll give a disclaimer.\u00a0 You know you have to test.\u00a0 You definitely have to test this stuff.\u00a0 But when I read something written by Clayton Makepeace or Gary Halbert\u201a Gary wrote a piece shortly before he passed away for a colon cleansing product.\u00a0 That’s another case of I read the ad to read it just because Gary wrote it.\u00a0 And I have no interest whatsoever in that product.\u00a0 And I wind buying the product just because it’s so good.\u00a0 I don’t remember the headline exactly, \u201cThe Secret Of The World’s Oldest Man\u201d or something.<\/p>\n
The story was so compelling it’s like I got lost in the story.\u00a0 And I’m specifically reading this copy to study it as a copywriter.\u00a0 But it was so damn good, that now all the sudden that I’m in to it after just a few sentences… the copy is secondary.\u00a0 I’m not noticing the copy because I’m sucked into the story.<\/p>\n
You know, here’s something else I’m thinking of now\u201a and I’m not saying this to try and suck up to my interviewer either.\u00a0 But you wrote a promotion for Ken McCarthy’s copywriting course.\u00a0 And first of all, I would be real intimidated personally, writing a promotion for a copywriting course.\u00a0 Because I know the people reading this\u201a a lot of them are going to be copywriters.\u00a0 It’s like I’m a guitar player and there’s this old joke how many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?\u00a0 Well it takes six\u201a one to change the light bulb and five others to stand around with their arms crossed talking about how much better they could do it.\u00a0 That’s how I feel about writing an ad for a copywriting course that I know copywriters are going to read.\u00a0 I’d think, \u201cWow… these guys are going to be critiquing my copy.\u201d<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Thank you…<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> That is a stellar example of what I’ve been trying to say but not doing a great job of expressing myself correctly.\u00a0 That ad is classic salesmanship.\u00a0 But without hype and without drawing attention to itself.\u00a0 It does the job of selling the product.<\/p>\nBEN: <\/strong> Now I wanted to talk a little bit about one of your newsletters.\u00a0 I thought this was really interesting.\u00a0 And you said you could teach people how to basically double their sales in 59 days or less.\u00a0 I think that’s what the newsletter was called.\u00a0 How does that work?\u00a0 What was that about?<\/p>\nDAN:<\/strong> Well, first of all I lied… I’m just kidding.\u00a0 Yeah\u201a I’m going to try and condense that down because I’ve done that several times.\u00a0 I’ll try to condense it down.\u00a0 We talked about one of the things\u201a if someone has an established business and they got snail mail addresses, one of the things they can do that very possibly will double their business in probably 30 days more or less, is to start sending direct mail to the list like we talked about earlier.<\/p>\nBut another thing that very few people have the guts to do is\u201a and I learned this both from Gary Halbert and Dan Kennedy\u201a is if you got a product or if you’re testing a product, give it away.\u00a0 And sometimes it’s a cheaper method of acquiring customers really fast.\u00a0 Just to give your product away.<\/p>\n
Or like Gary would always recommend, Gary would recommend a 30 day hold.\u00a0 Now, that’s where you say, \u201cHey, my product costs $97 but to prove it works and to let you try it without any commitment, I’m going to let you have it now for free and you can post date your check for 30 days and not pay for 30 days later.\u00a0 If you don’t like the product for any reason, just send the product back.\u00a0 We’ll tear up your check un-cashed.\u201d\u00a0 Or now in the days of credit cards we’ll hold the charge\u201a \u201cwe’re not going to charge your credit card for 30 days.\u00a0 If at any point during that time you think our product sucks give us a call and say ‘hey\u201a your product sucks’ and we will destroy your credit card information and we’ll never charge your card.\u201d\u00a0 Very few people have the guts to do that because they’re afraid they’re going to get ripped off.\u00a0 And I will tell you this, you will get ripped off by a certain percentage of people.\u00a0 But it also will vastly increase your response.\u00a0 And you’ll get increased refunds, too.\u00a0 But it’s a way to bring in customers really fast.\u00a0 And we are all buying customers through investing our time and optimizing our websites for search engines or buying customers through the advertising we’re paying for.\u00a0 So this is just another form of buying customers.\u00a0 And I’ve also tried it with giving away the product free\u201a but the condition of that is they’re automatically enrolled in a monthly continuity.<\/p>\n
So those are several ways that I’ve used, either alone or in combination together, to more than double a business in 59 days or less.\u00a0 And the example on my website where I took a business and had a 1400% increase in sales in like less than 5 months I used a combination of those things.\u00a0 I took an online business, started doing direct mail, and offline advertising in magazines, and either did a 30 day hold like Gary taught, or did the first order’s free and then they’re enrolled in a monthly continuity program.\u00a0 And that worked extremely well.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> I find that very intriguing.\u00a0 And one of the questions I actually wanted to ask you about was what are some ways that you use to keep those people from either dropping off or, even worse, doing charge-backs on you?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Well, several things.\u00a0 The charge-back issue I’ve handled by if they place an order online they immediately get a thank you email, \u201cHey thanks for your order.\u00a0 Just as a reminder you’ve enrolled in our monthly auto-ship program.\u00a0 Every 30 days you’ll get blah blah blah shipped to you.\u00a0 It’s easy to reschedule or cancel your recurring order at any time.\u00a0 Just give us a call at this number or contact us through our customer service email.\u201d<\/p>\nThat gets sent by email.\u00a0 The exact message gets sent with a product order just as a little reminder.\u00a0 I’m trying to think if there’s anything else.\u00a0 Those are the main things I’ve done.\u00a0 Just a reminder that if it’s a 30 day hold that their card is going to be charged in 30 days if they don’t contact us or they’ve enrolled in a monthly continuity program.<\/p>\n
And also as far as like retention on a monthly continuity program, this is pure gold.\u00a0 This took one of my continuity programs from just being not very good\u201a people canceling like after one month or people immediately canceling after the first auto-ship.\u00a0 This took it from that which was pretty crappy\u201a it sucks to do all this work getting people involved in a monthly auto-ship only to have them cancel right after the first month or right before the first auto-ship kicks in.\u00a0 I was having a large percentage of people do that\u201a like 50% or more.\u00a0 And then what I did is I started the bonus\u201a they got a monthly newsletter.\u00a0 You could make it a monthly report or whatever you want to call it.\u00a0 They’re all the sudden not just an auto-ship customer… they’re now in the \u201cElite Blah Blah Blah\u201d club.\u00a0 And as a result of that they’re going to get the special \u201cBlah Blah Newsletter\u201d exclusively for people in this exclusive club.<\/p>\n
And here’s what you can look forward to in the following months… you know bullet.\u00a0 Really hot information that’s really going to pique their curiosity and every month I started sending them an actual snail mail printed newsletter.\u00a0 And it did not go out with their product.\u00a0 It was mailed separately the first week of every month.\u00a0 And the reason I did that, and the reason I did not do an online newsletter, is because first of all an online newsletter people would never get the notice about\u201a or an online newsletter basically has very little perceived value.\u00a0 But a newsletter that’s printed has much higher perceived value.\u00a0 And the reason I didn’t send it with the product is because I wanted to be basically contacting these people twice a month.\u00a0 They got contacted by me when they got their product order and then later that month they also got their newsletter from me.\u00a0 And that really helped my retention go from a higher percentage of people canceling after the first month to basically having an average retention of four months.\u00a0 Which is really good in that particular market with that particular product.\u00a0 An average retention of four months made it really profitable.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> How was that newsletter created in relation to the product?\u00a0 Was it just industry type news or how was that done?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> Some issues were about the product and some issues did have some success stories of people using the product\u201a \u201cJoe Blow from New York has phenomenal success with this product.\u00a0 He’s gained X and here’s how he did it.\u00a0 This is what he did in addition to using the product like we recommend to make these kind of gains.\u201d\u00a0 Because this was in the body building market.\u00a0 So we’ll detail his training and diet and he took our X product exactly as we recommend so we’ll feature it in some issues.<\/p>\nOther issues it’s just pure content like, \u201cOkay guys, everyone wants bigger arms, here’s a quick trick to add some vast size to your arms.\u201d\u00a0 Just pure content.\u00a0 I just make sure that the content is really really good in this newsletter.<\/p>\n
BEN: <\/strong> Did you say that the retention rate was about four months?\u00a0 Is that pretty much about average on an auto-ship supplement type thing\u201a four months?<\/p>\nDAN: <\/strong> That’s been my average for this.\u00a0 I know a couple other guys in selling health related products that three to four months seems to be about the average for them.\u00a0 So I don’t know if that’s the average for that market or if that’s just the average in general.\u00a0 I take it back\u201a you know what, I did an auto-ship program years ago with another little business I had and it was\u201a with shipping and handling it was over a $100 a month.\u00a0 And I had a lot of people stay on for years.\u00a0 I even had one guy contacted me and he said, \u201cHey I was wondering if I could be temporarily off my auto-ship.\u00a0 I’ve been out of the country for eight months and I’m not able to use the product.\u00a0 So could you cancel me temporarily?\u201d<\/p>\n
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